The Other Woman | The Oprah Winfrey Show | Oprah Winfrey Network

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[MUSIC] OPRAH WINFREY: All new. These women are coming forward today to tell you something that could save your marriage. They've been the other woman. It's the side of the story we rarely get to hear, straight from the source. Next. WINFREY: Hi, everybody. Hi, hi, hi. [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] WINFREY: Good to see you all. AUDIENCE MEMBER: We love you, Oprah. WINFREY: Hi, thanks. Have a seat. Have a seat, have a--nice to see you guys. Where's all the brothers coming from? This is my brothers aren't... [LAUGHTER] [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] WINFREY: Hey. What is going on? [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: What is going on? Are you all... AUDIENCE MEMBER: We love you, Oprah. DEAN: Yeah. WINFREY: Are you all a club or something? [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: What is the occasion? Are you all a group? DEAN: Oprah, we called off from work and we all said we're gonna go as a group. WINFREY: As a group? DEAN: Yes. WINFREY: So you all are friends who all got together and said let's come to the Oprah show? DEAN: Right. We were hoping Gayle would be here. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: You were hoping Gayle. You were hoping--you should have called me. DEAN: We know. You're not. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: Though she is very single. DEAN: Very single. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: You should have told me, honey. I-she would have been here, shed have flown here for that. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: And it's--how many of you all? One, four, five, six, 12. DEAN: Twelve. 12 of us. WINFREY: Twelve to choose from? [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: Oh my man. DEAN: Twelve. WINFREY: Well. How old are you? You're a little young for her. DEAN: No, I'm not. WINFREY: Okay. DEAN: I'm her age. WINFREY: You are not. [LAUGHTER] DEAN: Well, you know, I'm what she would like. [LAUGHTER] [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] WINFREY: It's good that we have all of you men in the audience, because this is the show that you would be interested in, to help you for your future. Are you all single men? You're not married? GROUP, AUDIENCE MEMBERS: No. WINFREY: Nobody's married? Okay. So a while back, I sat down with a roomful of cheating husbands who were all very candid about their affairs and many of you told us that what you heard was not only revealing, but eye-opening. Today, you are gonna hear another side of that story, because the women I'm sitting with all admit to doing something many of you might consider to be wrong, immoral, amoral. They are working women. These women are a court reporter, a teacher's aide, a writer, and a public relations executive. Two are married and have children, but they all have something in common. SARAH: I've dated countless married men. By the time I was in my mid-20s, it wasn't strange to me at all to have businessmen who were openly married, flirting with me. In fact, it became the norm. CRYSTAL: I've been in a relationship with married men twice. The first time, the relationship lasted off and on for seven years. And there were times when my child and his children, we'd all go out to dinner. MICHELLE: When I'm in a relationship with a married man, it is somewhat of a fantasy life because he does have his own reality. He's married to somebody else and has a life with that other person. MELISSA: I was married and I had an affair with a married man. My husband thought our marriage was fine and I was always wanting an upgrade. WINFREY: Well, Melissa, Michelle, Sarah and Crystal all say that they are here to speak honestly about what it's like to be the other woman from their experience. The first question, how does this start? How does it start? MELISSA: I met the other man at a coffee place. He started showing up every morning at the same time. We're making a lot of eye contact and then he eventually joined in conversation, and it just escalated from there. He said, do you wanna take a ride in my truck? Basically, I'm alone in a truck with somebody of the opposite sex and we both knew what was gonna happen. SARAH: I met him at a business dinner. He was very distinguished businessman, high profile, a lot older than me. He pursued me very hard. He would've phoned me constantly, text messaging and calling. CRYSTAL: The first time I became involved with a married man, I met him through work. I accompanied him on business trips and I would be introduced as a business associate. We would go out two or three times a week. I don't know what he would tell his wife when we went out. MICHELLE: I met him in Vegas. We hooked up for the weekend that was all really it was supposed to be, and that was six and a half years ago. I ended up moving to his town after he had been married and that's when we took it, I guess, to a different level. WINFREY: So Michelle is a 36-year-old single woman who says she's been having an affair with a married man now for seven years. What did you mean when you said took it to a different level? MICHELLE: The first few years when we were dating, I guess, I only saw him, like, once a month or something and we didn't--he'd always kept me at arm's length. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. MICHELLE: He didn't ever wanna get to know me at a different level, I think, 'cause it was easier to keep life separate. And so when I ended up moving into the area where he lived... WINFREY: And you moved into the area where he lived to be near him? MICHELLE: No. I had family in the area. WINFREY: Okay. MICHELLE: So not for that reason at all but we, emotionally, developed a relationship and ended spending a lot more time together. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. MICHELLE: So I got to know him at a deeper level and more about who he was and what he wanted, and it was a lot, a lot more intimate than it had been.

It was more physical in the beginning. WINFREY: Well, Michelle's friend Melinda is here. What do you think of Michelle's relationship, Melinda? MELINDA: I have a hard time with it, because, I think, she deserves to be number one in somebody's It was more physical in the beginning. WINFREY: Well, Michelle's friend Melinda is here. What do you think of Michelle's relationship, Melinda? MELINDA: I have a hard time with it, because, I think, she deserves to be number one in somebody's life and she is always second. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Sarah, you've dated lots of married men or several? SARAH: When I was younger. WINFREY: Yeah. SARAH: I did get involved with quite a few, yes. I was in a jet set lifestyle with my career and there were many playboys out there who wanted to cheat on their wives and I just--it was my age, my circumstances, everything. WINFREY: And so is it just--were you just involved with men who were married? Did you seek out men who were married? SARAH: No, I never seek them out, specifically. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. SARAH: Sadly, they seemed to be the ones attracted to me. I never met great single guys and so I kind of fell into it, which is no excuse but it's the truth. WINFREY: Uh-huh. Are you--is anyone here, were you seeking out married men? CRYSTAL: I didn't know the men I dated were married when I first met them. WINFREY: Uh-huh. Okay. So but after you go out with one who is married and listen, you know, that isn't--sometimes, the first question on everyone's mind, are you married, but after it's happened to you one time, I would think that would be the first question the next time around. CRYSTAL: Definitely. WINFREY: Yeah. CRYSTAL: Definitely. WINFREY: And so when you find out they are married, does it matter? CRYSTAL: For me it mattered, at the time. WINFREY: Yeah. It did, at the time. How long did the relationship continue? CRYSTAL: For me, it lasted seven years. WINFREY: Seven years. How long did your relationship continue? MELISSA: Eight months. WINFREY: Eight months. And when you were involved in this relationship, I know, like all the women who are watching who are married and, you know, more and more woman are actually having, also having affairs, did you ever, at any time, think about the wife? MELISSA: Oh, yes. WINFREY: Yeah. MELISSA: She was a character of his story, of his life. WINFREY: Yeah. MELISSA: She's an extension of him, just like the kids, his friends, the rest of his family. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. MELISSA: She was just a part of his life that I accepted. WINFREY: That you just accepted. And you felt like what, in the relationship? MELISSA: In the very beginning, it didn't bother me but as I knew that she became suspicious, then it started to bother me because I knew it was hurting somebody else. WINFREY: Uh-huh. MELISSA: If it--what she didn't know wouldn't hurt her, but when she did know, then I realized that it... WINFREY: Felt badly about it. MELISSA: Yeah, yeah. It started to get stressful. WINFREY: And the same for you, Michelle, or not? MICHELLE: I have always chosen not to know about the wife. It's been six and a half years. I don't know to this day. WINFREY: So are you currently still involved? MICHELLE: Yeah. WINFREY: Yeah. Is anybody else here currently still involved? CRYSTAL: Happily married. WINFREY: Happily married. CRYSTAL: Happily married. WINFREY: Happily married, non-cheating, married? CRYSTAL: Correct. WINFREY: Okay. Yes? SARAH: No, and my affair lasted almost two years. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. SARAH: At the beginning, he misrepresented himself and told me he was single and he did a great job on winning me, you know, spoiling me, taking me around the world. He was everything I looked for in a guy. I'd thought I'd found Mr. Perfect. WINFREY: Yeah. SARAH: So when he dropped the bombshell that he wasn't actually that available, I moved into another stage by then, 'cause I was deeply in love with him. And I thought if I kept going with this and being the person he'd fallen in love with, I could, somehow, win him away from his wife. I wanted to be number one. That was my challenge then. WINFREY: Uh-huh. SARAH: That went on to be a very destructive path for me. WINFREY: How so? SARAH: Because the more I wanted to be number one and the more that he was manipulating me into believing I could be with a-- he talked about building a future together... WINFREY: Mm-hmm. SARAH: ...and he was a very intelligent businessman, so I was dealing with somebody who, actually, was a manipulator, as part of his job every day. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. And you're shaking your head because? CRYSTAL: I'm agreeing with everything she's saying. WINFREY: Do you feel you were manipulated into the relationship? CRYSTAL: Oh, definitely. WINFREY: Yeah. CRYSTAL: Especially when they don't tell you upfront that they're married. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. CRYSTAL: And I was very young, my daughter was three, at the time, and he was, he had the attributes of my soul mate and then, by the time I was emotionally invested, I found out that he was married. WINFREY: Mm-hmm.

CRYSTAL: And I--after the seven years we spent more time together, the wife wasn't calling, we were going on trips, so I began to believe that she didn't care and that she was okay with it. CRYSTAL: And I--after the seven years we spent more time together, the wife wasn't calling, we were going on trips, so I began to believe that she didn't care and that she was okay with it. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We'll be back in a moment. [APPLAUSE] WINFREY: Coming up, what happened when one of our other women meets the wife. But first, Melissa tells us why she believes having an affair saved her unhappy marriage. MELISSA: The day I confessed the affair to my husband, he just shattered. He literally folded in half, went to the ground--I mean, he's six foot two inches, 240 pounds and he just, he started crying. Many times through the years that I told him that I was unhappy and needed more from him and it just fell on deaf ears. The affair changed my marriage because he was willing to, not only stay in the marriage, but work toward a better marriage. He said I had kind of knocked the cocky right out of him. Today, our marriage is 100% percent better than I ever imagined it would be. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] CRYSTAL: What I really liked about the relationship is that I always had the freedom to go out on other dates. There was never a time where he could say to me, well, I don't want you seeing other men, when he would go home to his wife. I didn't have some of the obligations that come with being a wife. I didn't have to clean up behind him, I didn't have to cook for him. It was great to have someone there when you needed a date or you needed money or you needed companionship. It was like I could rent a husband. WINFREY: So Crystal is now married and a mother and she says she regrets her seven-year affair with a married man. Why do you now regret it? CRYSTAL: I regret it because all the time I was spending with him, I could've been, I could've made myself available to a man who could commit to me fully. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. CRYSTAL: I've grown a lot in the past seven years and I'm not here to judge, but I feel that my relationship was wrong... WINFREY: Mm-hmm. CRYSTAL: ...and that there was no good that could come from it. WINFREY: Yeah. And why do you feel that it was wrong? CRYSTAL: Well, eventually, I became the other, other woman, so another woman entered the picture. WINFREY: Yeah. CRYSTAL: And I realized that if he was going to be unfaithful to his wife, certainly, down the line, he was gonna be unfaithful to me. We didn't have any core values in our relationship that we... WINFREY: Yeah. CRYSTAL: ...based on deceit. WINFREY: Well, your story, you know, I don't think I've ever said this on TV before, but your story really mirrors my story, because when I was in my--yes. In my 20s, I was involved with a married man. And it is one of my greatest regrets. And later found out that that the married man also had another--I would--I also became the other, other woman. And it is such a powerless position to be in and such a, you know, if I--you know, I have a whole lot of regrets in my life, but I regret it not only because of the--how pathetic it made me as a woman... CRYSTAL: Mm-hmm. WINFREY: ...and I regret it not only because I was pathetic, but because of what I did to his wife. CRYSTAL: Mm-hmm. WINFREY: Or, you know, I didn't think about his wife. I believed what he was telling me. I believed the lies that he was telling me about her. And so, you know, I look back at that time in my life and feel, you know, it's not that he was responsible anyway, because I always had the choice. CRYSTAL: Mm-hmm. WINFREY: I always had the choice. CRYSTAL: I had painted a picture of what his wife looked like based on everything he told me and I actually had a chance to meet her once and she was beautiful and poised and she was just the opposite of the picture he painted. And so... WINFREY: Of course. CRYSTAL: ...that was just, I guess, that was my aha moment. WINFREY: Of course, 'cause, you know, no guy is gonna say, you know, my wife is really beautiful and she's really good to me and things are really going well at home, and everything's lovely and I'm just using you. CRYSTAL: Mm-hmm. [LAUGHTER] MELISSA: Well, actually, the other man in my life, he did say his wife was beautiful... WINFREY: Mm-hmm. MELISSA: ...and that he loved her and, you know, things weren't great at home, but it was just something he did. WINFREY: Uh-huh. MELISSA: In a way, it was like, well, if she's so great then I must be really great, you know, to him. He--for him to be interested in me with being so happy at home. WINFREY: But now, you know what I was saying, I mean--I've, you know, often talked about, you know, my dating years in the 20s and how--what a sorrowful time that was. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: When you look back on yourself now... MICHELLE: Mm-hmm. WINFREY: ...and you're still in it, but it is a pathetic situation. And when you finally get out of it, you will look back at yourself and say, why was I this pathetic? And what do you think of yourself? MICHELLE: I don't have a problem with myself. I have a problem with what I'm doing. I don't think it's right. I've never felt or thought it was right. WINFREY: Uh-huh. MICHELLE: I didn't meet him, he wasn't married when I met him. WINFREY: Uh-huh. CRYSTAL: So it wasn't a situation where I ever got into it because he was a married man and I expected to not be having an affair. I've always been completely against it. I think it's wrong. WINFREY: Uh-huh. MICHELLE: I didn't mean to fall in love with him. So I don't look at it as right at all.

WINFREY: How could you possibly believe that somebody is not lying to you if they're lying to the person that they made their vows to? MICHELLE: You know, I guess I don't look at it that-- WINFREY: How could you possibly believe that somebody is not lying to you if they're lying to the person that they made their vows to? MICHELLE: You know, I guess I don't look at it that-- I mean, I do look at it in the sense like people say, well, if you were ever to--if he were ever to divorce his wife and marry you, he's gonna do it to you. And I've always been the type of person that says, you know, there's a good possibility it would happen. WINFREY: Yeah. MICHELLE: You know, it's--I can't say it wouldn't. I'm not one to defend it and say, oh, but I'm the right person for his life. I'm the person. I don't know. I would take the chance. WINFREY: Uh-huh. MICHELLE: I know the relationship I have with him, I don't feel it's right to be having an affair but, you know, I know our situation and we have great chemistry. He's my--one of my dearest friends and... WINFREY: Okay. So in the name of chemistry, you'll keep doing it. MICHELLE: Probably, actually. WINFREY: Well, Dr. Michelle Callahan is a psychologist who's counseled both the other woman and wives whose husbands have cheated. What do you want to say to women who get involve with married men? DOCTOR CALLAHAN: You know, Michelle, you really need to get in touch with what there is that happened in your past, what you were told about yourself or what you think about yourself today that would allow you to put yourself in this secondary position. If you were to go to a bar today and meet a man, and he were to promise you, hey, you know what? I'm gonna give you 30% percent of my time, 30 percent of my attention, 30% percent of my love, you'd tell him to go get out of your face just as quick as the day is long but, in this situation, you allow yourself to stay and it's a toxic relationship. Dr. CALLAHAN: And every day that you stay in it, it erodes your self-esteem, it erodes you self-worth, and it makes you feel less powerful. And you have the power to change it, you made the choice to get into it, and you can make the choice to get out. MICHELLE: And I've gotten out of it before. [APPLAUSE] WINFREY: Okay. Well, let's just ask you this. Okay. Are you happy? Are you happy with this situation? MICHELLE: I mean, there's periods where I'm not, yeah, but you know what... WINFREY: No, really, no, you did--you hate it. Hey, I know that. MICHELLE: Yeah. WINFREY: Well, sometimes everything isn't perfect. Life is like that. Are you happy? MICHELLE: In general, yes. I wish we could be married. I wish it could be different. I don't believe that it will ever be different. I honestly don't. But am I happy? Yeah, I see him more than most people see their boyfriends. I see him pretty much every day. It's a great--we have a great time. WINFREY: How is it--so what kind of lies is he telling his wife? MICHELLE: I don't know that he has--the way his job is, I don't know that he has to lie to his wife about where he is. I really don't know that he is. WINFREY: Well, he ain't telling her he's with you. MELISSA: It's lies by omission. MICHELLE: Yeah, no, I don't think he's telling her. I don't think he's--I think, yeah, he's lying by not saying anything--yeah, yeah. WINFREY: He's not saying, I'm not with you, I'm with Michelle. So what is--what he--he has to be telling her something. MICHELLE: His job is not normal hours. It's not anything normal, so I don't know, I don't know what it is. MELISSA: She's in love with a liar. MICHELLE: I really choose not to find out anything about his wife. SARAH: My guy used to say to me, he's not actually lying to his wife because she knew where he was. If he was on a business trip, he just left out the part that I was with him. So to him, that wasn't lying. WINFREY: Uh-huh. Coming up, the number one reason these women say men do cheat. We'll talk about that when we come back, back in a moment. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] SARAH: Our affair was one big adrenaline rush. Everything was so spontaneous and so secretive and so edgy that it was always fun. And our sexual chemistry was fantastic. It was very hot and heavy and I ended up flying all over the world to see him at his expense. MELISSA: We would see each other three or four times a week. The kids had soccer practice. I'd drop them off and run down to our spot. It was shielded by trees above a road, so it was completely secluded. CRYSTAL: We would usually meet at my apartment. He would buy me lingerie and he really liked for me to be sexy for him. I felt that I could offer him great sex and that his wife could not offer him that. MICHELLE: He would come to my house a lot. And there sometimes we would stay in a hotel. We had great sexual chemistry. And we were intimate. I mean it was everything except that he went home to his home and I went home to my home. WINFREY: And so is it an illusion to believe that that kind of sexual chemistry or attraction can be a lasting thing? Dr. CALLAHAN: Absolutely, because it's just an escape from this man's reality. He's just looking for a sexual fantasy and he plays it out with the other woman instead of playing it out with his wife. She has so many fewer responsibilities than the wife does. Your only job is to stroke his ego, make him feel important, and look the way he wants to look.

That's not how any real relationship works. WINFREY: So what is the counseling that the other woman needs? Doesn't the other woman need to just not mess with other people's husbands? Dr. CALLAHAN: Absolutely. WINFREY: So what do you say to her? That's not how any real relationship works. WINFREY: So what is the counseling that the other woman needs? Doesn't the other woman need to just not mess with other people's husbands? Dr. CALLAHAN: Absolutely. WINFREY: So what do you say to her? Dr. CALLAHAN: I'd try to get her in touch with where she came from and why she would even agree from the very first step... WINFREY: Yeah. Dr. CALLAHAN: ...when you know he's married--not if you don't know, but if you do know... WINFREY: Yeah. Dr. CALLAHAN: ...why did you agree right then and there? WINFREY: What if you don't know... Dr. CALLAHAN: What are you afraid of? WINFREY: What if you don't know and you're involved with the person--you're emotionally involved with the person when you realize now, oh, my god, this person's married. Dr. CALLAHAN: It's very, very difficult because women are very emotional and they get very emotionally attached and connected. And at that point, it's very hard for them to make the disconnect. We create a plan to very slowly start to pull them out of the relationship because they're in love then. They are even more invested in the fantasy that they will eventually become the wife. They believe it. They say, we're connected, we're in love, we're making plans to go forward. So it's very hard to have that reality check and say, you know what? You being in this relationship actually is going to make it more likely that he stays with his wife than it is that he will leave her. It's very hard to get them to believe that. It takes a very long time to get that message to sink in. WINFREY: That you're being in the relationship is more-- he's more likely to stay with his wife. Dr. CALLAHAN: Absolutely. WINFREY: Why? Dr. CALLAHAN: Because he can have the best of both worlds. He can have his cake and eat it too. He's got no reason to leave his wife if you will continue to date him and stay with him while he's with his wife. He doesn't have to get rid of either one of you. He can keep both of you. Why would he ever leave? WINFREY: So why do you think men cheat? Why was the man that you're now currently involved with and have been for six and a half years, why is he cheating? MICHELLE: I met him before he got married. So I think it was the relationship... WINFREY: So why didn't he marry you? MICHELLE: Because he's the type of person who already was in the situation. I met him at a time in my life when I was just out to have fun. I knew he had a girlfriend. WINFREY: Uh-huh. MICHELLE: I didn't really--I wasn't looking for anything. WINFREY: Okay. MICHELLE: I think he married someone who's a good companion. Financially, they work well together. I think that's important to him. I think he loves her. I think instead of investing emotionally in the relationship, he's chosen to look where it's easier outside maybe. WINFREY: Yeah. And it's easier... MICHELLE: And I felt... WINFREY: ...it's easier with you? MICHELLE: I don't think that's the right way to do it, but I, you know, I think obviously there's something missing. And instead of taking the time to... WINFREY: Okay. The man you were dating, why was he cheating? SARAH: He was telling me that he didn't have the chemistry at home with his wife... WINFREY: Mm-hmm. SARAH: ...and he was only with her because of the children. And he actually led me along the garden path to say that he wanted me and he was gonna leave her. And that's the-- I was basically in love with a con man. So that's what I wanted to believe would happen. And I got so far into denial. WINFREY: Why was he cheating, Crystal? CRYSTAL: He fell in love with me and he wanted to wait 'til his children graduated from high school to leave his wife. It's cheaper to keep her. He didn't wanna address alimony and child support issues if he left his wife. WINFREY: Okay. We'll be right back. WINFREY: Coming up, Dr. Callahan tells us what cheating men don't want their mistresses to know. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] CRYSTAL: I had fairytale dreams of us being a power couple, being a well-kept wife, and having the big home and fancy cars and big diamond ring. But it was never going to be a reality. MICHELLE: I would love for us to end up marrying. And people say, well, he's cheated on, you know, his wife, he'll cheat on you. It could happen. And I would take that chance on in a heartbeat. MELISSA: There was a lot of dreaming out loud where we would say, oh, wouldn't it be nice if we could do this or we could do that. But I think both of us knew that it was a relationship that wouldn't make it. SARAH: He wanted a future with me so much so that he gave me a budget to go and look at properties, look at houses, talked about settling down, talked about how he would explain to his other half that he was leaving and when he was going to do it. He even rehearsed what he was going to say in front of me. Of course, nothing happened. He couldn't leave her. WINFREY: Well, after Sarah's own experiences as the other woman and talking to dozens of other mistresses, she wrote a book called, "Having an Affair? A Handbook for the Other Woman." What good do you think can come from such a thing, from your book? SARAH: I was in such a low place that year.

He had absolutely crucified me. And I began writing a diary as rehab, to try and get myself through it. I didn't know how to pick up the pieces. And slowly, the diary turned into the book. And I just hope that I can help--if I can help one woman He had absolutely crucified me. And I began writing a diary as rehab, to try and get myself through it. I didn't know how to pick up the pieces. And slowly, the diary turned into the book. And I just hope that I can help--if I can help one woman not go through what I went through and waste so much time, then my work is done. WINFREY: 'Cause you believed the picture that he painted. SARAH: I believed the picture he painted. And I wanted that picture. WINFREY: Uh-huh. SARAH: And then when push came to shove, he chose his wife over me, as is usually the case. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. SARAH: I was discarded. I had nowhere to go. I was suffering financially, mentally and physically. My health... WINFREY: How long were you in it? SARAH: Almost two years. WINFREY: Almost two years. Yeah. So you believed all the lies. SARAH: I did. WINFREY: Yeah. SARAH: I--and--I did. WINFREY: Yeah. And there are always lies, are there not, Dr. Callahan? Dr. CALLAHAN: I mean, I think from what you've said, sometimes, they say the wife is wonderful, but a lot of times, it is lies. And they keep feeding you the story that you're going to move forward, but you keep noticing the reality check that it's not moving forward. So it's a big ego stroke to the woman, too, where he's telling you all--men have us figured out. They got it already. They understand us better than we understand them. And they know how to prey on women's vulnerabilities and how to give them that emotional attention. And they'll give you what you want so they can get what they want. WINFREY: And so when you find yourself involved in that kind of entanglement where, Sarah was saying earlier, she wanted to win. She'd been put in the position where she wanted to win. Your advice to women is what? Dr. CALLAHAN: They have to get out of their mindset of being a competition. You're not--the wife has already won. She's already got the grand prize. So you have to really stop thinking about when it might... WINFREY: She's already got the lying grand prize is one she got. Dr. CALLAHAN: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: A lying, cheating grand prize she's got. Dr. CALLAHAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [LAUGHTER] Dr. CALLAHAN: Well, yeah. That's right. What kind of prize is he really? WINFREY: Yeah. Dr. CALLAHAN: And start focusing back on how to pick your life back up, because you do get so entangled with that other person that you don't know how to live without them. WINFREY: Yeah. And I think one of the things for women who, you know--'cause it's very easy to villainize the other woman, but I think that quite often, the wives don't understand the lies that are being told. I think the wives think that, well, why would you do this? Well, you know, in the case that we've heard here, you know, a lot of times, you don't even know until you're emotionally involved. And the guy is never telling you the truth. Dr. CALLAHAN: Well, he knows you're more comfortable knowing that he's unhappy, that he's not emotionally supported, that he's not sexually satisfied, that he feels lonely. Women are nurturers quite naturally. So when they hear all these things, they immediately step up and say, I'll take care of that. I'll please you. I'll show you how it feels to be loved. I can take care of you. I'm a wonderful person. Let me show you how great I am and I can fix it. WINFREY: Coming up, what wives have to say to the other woman? That's next. You get your chance, all the wives out there. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] MELISSA: He would tell me that he loved her very much, but it was just starting to get stale. MICHELLE: I don't know her name, what she does. I've never asked. I've never wanted to put a face to the person. I've never wanted to give her an identity. SARAH: He told me he was physically and emotionally frustrated at home. He said if they didn't have children they wouldn't be together, that he was in love with me, not her. I became obsessed with him leaving his wife. The lowest point came when I actually called his wife and told her what was going on. WINFREY: And when you say it finally got so bad, Sarah, you called her up to say what? SARAH: To tell her what had been going on for the last two years because I felt at that point, she needed to know he was doing some bad things. WINFREY: Yeah. And what was your intention doing that? Were you still trying to win him? SARAH: At the time, Oprah, I wasn't quite sure. I wasn't in a great mental place. I just knew that I had to stop this guy doing it to both of us. He was crucifying me and absolutely killing his wife, who didn't know what was going on. WINFREY: Well, we've been joined by two wives. Catherine joins us and also Teryl. Catherine says that she discovered her husband was cheating when he came home with--this is--men, brothers, take the lipstick off of your lips. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: 'Cause her husband came home with the lipstick on his lips, not even on his collar. How did he explain that? CATHERINE: Well, I had to wake him up. He was asleep. WINFREY: Yeah. CATHERINE: And I walked by the next morning, I was getting ready for work, and I looked down and I saw the shine on his lips. And I leaned over, you know, and woke him up. And I said, what's the lipstick? And he was like, you know--he's in the entertainment business--so he said, you know, I had something to do last night, and someone, you know, just kind of kissed me hello, it was a celebrity that kissed him hello. And at that time I believed him.

WINFREY: Was that your first, 'cause I always hear from friends of mine whose husbands have cheated that there's always a hmm. There's that first kind of like, uh-huh. Okay. Yeah. CATHERINE: That wasn't my first. WINFREY: Was that your first, 'cause I always hear from friends of mine whose husbands have cheated that there's always a hmm. There's that first kind of like, uh-huh. Okay. Yeah. CATHERINE: That wasn't my first. WINFREY: That wasn't your first. You'd had others. CATHERINE: No, I had several. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. CATHERINE: There was one time when we were on a road trip and we were in the car and his phone went off and he just didn't want to get it. And I'm like, I'll get it. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. CATHERINE: You know, do you want me to answer? And he was like, no, no. No, it's fine. And then I caught him when we stopped for gas. I caught him checking his phone and talking to someone. And I said, I bet that's not a friend. I bet that's a woman. WINFREY: Bet that's a woman. And you finally ended it when? When you realized... CATHERINE: It took a long time. It took several years and a lot of things to just, you know, really end it for me. But what the deciding factor was, the sheriff knocked on the door and served him child support papers. And he knew it was coming. WINFREY: For a child you didn't know existed? CATHERINE: No. WINFREY: Uh-huh. CATHERINE: And he knew it was coming, and he just opted not to tell me. After he locked himself in the bathroom and let himself out... [LAUGHTER] CATHERINE: ...and... WINFREY: Drama mama, drama, drama mama. Yeah. CATHERINE: Yeah. And I proceeded to try and knock his front tooth out, I... [LAUGHTER] [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] CATHERINE: I decided it was time to leave. WINFREY: Yeah. Yeah. Back in a moment. WINFREY: Coming up, her husband left while she was pregnant with their fourth child. What she has to say to the other woman. That's next. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: We're talking to wives who discovered their husbands were cheating. Okay, how did you find out, Teryl? TERYL: I overheard a phone conversation. I walked in and heard him say to her, I wish you weren't working today, 'cause I'd try to buzz out to see you for a while. So I instantly knew something wasn't right. My heart started pounding. I busted the door open and started asking, who are you talking to? Who are you talking to? And at that moment I think he snapped into reality for a moment. And we talked, and I found out there was something going on. WINFREY: Yeah. And at that time you were pregnant with your fourth child, I hear? TERYL: Yes. WINFREY: Fourth child. TERYL: Yes. WINFREY: Wow. And so when you found out about it, and you burst into the room, did he--and confronted him, did he tell you the truth immediately? TERYL: He told me that there was an emotional affair going on. He said that there was nothing physical at that point. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. TERYL: And I chose to believe him... WINFREY: Mm-hmm. TERYL: ...but found out later that that wasn't true. WINFREY: That that wasn't true. So when he was trying to leave, though, I heard you grabbed him or something? Is that true? TERYL: I grabbed his ankles and he dragged me down the hallway. And I didn't want him to leave because... WINFREY: This was at the same day? TERYL: This was later on, actually. WINFREY: Yeah. TERYL: It was about a month later. WINFREY: Yeah. Mm-hmm. TERYL: We tried to work things out. I thought we were working things out, and found out again it was still going on. I held on to him because he really represented my dreams, my life. He was a part of me. And for him to leave, it was like my life was ending. WINFREY: Did he leave while you were still pregnant? TERYL: Yes. WINFREY: Yeah. And did you--I understand you wrote the mistress, like, a long letter. TERYL: Yes. WINFREY: Asking the mistress to do what? TERYL: I have it right here. WINFREY: Okay. TERYL: It says, what can I possibly say to the woman who has aided in the demise of my life? I wish I could stand in front of you to voice these thoughts so you could see the real person in me, the real tears that fall, and the real pain I have endured, to look me straight in the eyes and try to convince me that you are the better woman, to proudly admit that you are the woman who robbed me of a sweet, enchanted and blessed marriage. At what point does it become right to take away a woman's husband? At what point do you justify hurting another human being beyond comprehension? Was the battle worth it? And what about the children? All the security and comfort they had in a stable household has been taken from them. WINFREY: Hmm. TERYL: As a woman, I can't possibly understand how you are comfortable with completely tearing apart our family. If your relationship with a married man is all you've ever dreamt for yourself, then you haven't set your aspirations high enough. You are worth more than a man who would leave his entire family and his entire life. WINFREY: Hmm. [APPLAUSE] WINFREY: Well said. And so why was he cheating? And was this the first time? TERYL: It was the first time. WINFREY: That he told you? TERYL: That I know of, but I'm fairly certain. He...

WINFREY: How could it be the first time, though, if you're willing to leave your whole family? How could that be the first time, though? TERYL: Well... WINFREY: Teryl? TERYL: ...he was the worship pastor of our church. WINFREY: How could it be the first time, though, if you're willing to leave your whole family? How could that be the first time, though? TERYL: Well... WINFREY: Teryl? TERYL: ...he was the worship pastor of our church. TERYL: And I think, altogether, it was very difficult for him to return to that life. And I think it was difficult for him to face all those people that he was accountable to. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. As the worship pastor. TERYL: Right. WINFREY: Yeah. And so now you have all the children. TERYL: I do. I have--we have joint custody. WINFREY: And the children are how old? TERYL: Ten, six, three, and seven months. WINFREY: Wow. That is devastating. TERYL: Yes. WINFREY: Yeah. TERYL: Very devastating. WINFREY: And how have you gotten through it? TERYL: My strength is solely because of God. [APPLAUSE] WINFREY: But this is the thing. All right. I think the other woman certainly has her role in it, but ultimately it was his choice. TERYL: Mm-hmm. WINFREY: He decided to leave you and his family... TERYL: Right. WINFREY: ...and his baby that was coming. You know, she--this is America. She didn't put a, you know, a noose around his neck. She didn't, you know, voodoo him or whatever. TERYL: Right. WINFREY: And so how--you know, I think that's a really impassioned letter to write to the other woman. But what responsibility does he hold in all of this? TERYL: It's definitely his choice. He made the choice, it was his mistake, and I hold him just as responsible. It's hard to put myself in her shoes because I am a woman and she's a woman... WINFREY: Hmm. TERYL: ...and I can't imagine trying to do that to a family. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Were you willing to forgive him and then go on with the marriage? TERYL: Yes. WINFREY: Were you willing to do that? TERYL: Yes. WINFREY: Yeah. TERYL: I was going to stay in it until I knew it was over. WINFREY: That's why you were holding on to him as he's dragging you--you were holding on to his heels. TERYL: Right. WINFREY: Yeah. That's always a sad situation, isn't it? Yeah. You look back on that time, and don't you wish you'd have gotten up, at least, and let him walk out the door. Yeah. Coming up, a betrayed wife sued her husband's mistress and won. She's here to talk about that. [APPLAUSE] MUSIC MUSIC WINFREY: When Candi Wagner discovered that her husband was cheating, she took the steamy love letters and sexy photos that the other woman had sent him and headed to her lawyer. And Candi sued her husband's mistress, which is something I hadn't heard of, charging her with alienation of affection. She won and was awarded $500,000. [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] WINFREY: And ultimately settled for $50,000. Why? CANDI: Oh, it went to appeal and I decided at that point just to put it behind us... WINFREY: Uh-huh. CANDI: ...completely. WINFREY: Yeah. But why choose to sue the mistress and not your husband? CANDI: Well, unfortunately, you can't sue the husband. Most states have no-fault divorce. And you just have to pursue that. And then I think, at the time, I felt so humiliated and devastated. I felt--it looked like an opportunity for redemption, in a way... WINFREY: Mm-hmm. CANDI: ...just to stand up for myself and my family and also sort of make... WINFREY: Because she actively pursued him, is what you're saying. CANDI: She actively pursued him. WINFREY: And what you had was the evidence of her... CANDI: I had... WINFREY: She's sending nude photos and things? CANDI: Well, racy photos. WINFREY: Scantily clad. CANDI: Yes. Yes. WINFREY: Yeah. CANDI: But to his place of work. WINFREY: And letters? CANDI: Cards and letters. WINFREY: Saying what? CANDI: I think they first met in a bar out of town and nothing happened, but she chose to send him a Christmas card. And he obviously bit, so she kept writing. And initially, she would say things like, I know you're married with three children and we can just be friends, but, you know, I really enjoyed meeting you. And then they became more graphic, that she could fly to our town any time, and then describing sexual acts she'd like to perform if only they could be together. And it took months... WINFREY: How did you get all these letters? CANDI: I found out from a friend of a friend that they were hidden in his workplace. In a little cubby in the wall is where I found them. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: Hmm. Look at her beaming. I found them. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: But isn't that--I mean, you say this now. I mean, I know that the sense of betrayal is devastating, you know? That maybe you can smile here today, but when you first recognized that you'd been betrayed, it's devastating. CANDI: Yeah, this was a long road to get to this place. WINFREY: Yeah. To get to this place. And you're in a better place now. CATHERINE: Yeah. WINFREY: Yeah. CATHERINE: Much better. WINFREY: You said happily divorced. CATHERINE: Happily divorced. WINFREY: Yeah. It hasn't been that long for you, though. What place are you in, Teryl? TERYL: I'm still healing. It's been a long process. WINFREY: Does he still have a relationship with your children? TERYL: He does. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. TERYL: He does, and he takes his time with them and he does a good job with them. And I'm thankful for that. WINFREY: We'll be right back. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: Well, at the beginning of the show, I came out of the audience and there was this guy-- I'm changing the subject now--there was this--there are-- first of all, Gayle is on the line. GAYLE KING: Hello. [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] WINFREY: Gayle? Gayle who was on--doing "The Gayle King Show" on XM Radio. I don't know if you all know Gayle has a show on XM Radio. So she got to... KING: I know. Oprah, I was taping the show and they said, you know, Oprah wants to call you on the air. And I said okay. And I looked at the subject matter today and it just says, "The Other Woman." I go, I don't have nothing to contribute to that conversation. [LAUGHTER] KING: I don't know why Oprah's calling me about that. WINFREY: That's not what I'm calling you for. KING: Okay. WINFREY: I'm calling you for-- when I walked out to the audience today, there were all of these black men. There are like 12 black men in the audience, which is highly unusual, which is, you know--every now and then, you see a sprinkling of a few men. Just a few. KING: Me like, me like. WINFREY: Okay. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: Okay. So I asked them all were they a club. And this one gentleman said that he was here, 'cause he thought you were gonna be here. But, well, you should see... KING: Oh... WINFREY: Wait a minute, Gayle... KING: Darn. [LAUGHTER] KING: Oh, god. WINFREY: Okay. So this gentleman is here. What's your name? DEAN: My name is Dean. WINFREY: Dean. DEAN: Yes. WINFREY: Who wanted to know if you were here, because you were coming to see Gayle? DEAN: Yes. [LAUGHTER] KING: Hi, Dean. DEAN: I'm in love with Gayle. [LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE] WINFREY: You're in love with Gayle. DEAN: Yes. WINFREY: He's--and the whole time, he hasn't paid any attention to what we're talking about. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: So Gayle. KING: But you know what I think is interesting about this, Oprah? You must see something about Dean, because you wouldn't call me. [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: Okay. KING: That's what I know about my friend. You would not be calling. WINFREY: No. I'm calling you, 'cause Dean said he wanted to meet you, and I just wanted to have you all-- let him hear your voice. That's why I'm doing that. KING: No, honey. WINFREY: No. KING: You would not be making no introductions if you're not interested. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: No, I'm not saying anything. No, frankly, I said to Dean--Dean, what did I say to you earlier? I think you're a little young. DEAN: No. I'm perfect for her. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: How old are you? KING: Oprah, Oprah, hush. Young is good. [LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE] WINFREY: All right. I just want you to know that that was going on. KING: No. But he really said that out loud? WINFREY: Yeah, he's--he said... KING: That is so nice. WINFREY: And all of his friends are--they're just sitting here grinning and they don't know what's happening. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: They came. They came. But you know how unusual it is, you know... KING: Yes. WINFREY: But it's rare to see men in the audience period. KING: Yes. WINFREY: And I walked out and there's this whole row of brothers. I wanted to know, was there a brothers convention... [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: ...or whatever. And I--and there's 12 of them to choose from. So I wish you were here today. But we're out of time. KING: I do too. WINFREY: We're out of time. All right. KING: Wait, wait, wait. WINFREY: What? No. Bye. KING: Bye. WINFREY: Get off the... KING: Bye, Dean. WINFREY: Bye. DEAN: I love you. [LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE] WINFREY: Thanks for watching. [MUSIC AND APPLAUSE]

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