UNLOCKED Full Episode: "Wife Who Killed Pastor Husband " | The Oprah Winfrey Show

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[narrator] An Oprah exclusive... [Oprah Winfrey] For the first time Mary Winkler, the wife who killed her pastor husband. [narrator] Her first interview, next. March 22nd 2006, in the small town of Selmer, Tennessee, Matthew Winkler, a popular 31-year-old minister, was found dead, shot in the back, next to his bed. His wife, Mary, a soft spoken, mother of three children, is on the run. Almost overnight, that story of the preacher's wife turned killer becomes a headline sensation. Every story seemed to ask the same questions. Why would Mary Winkler take a shotgun and kill her husband? Was she a calculating murderer, as the prosecution had suggested? Or was she a battered wife who one day simply snapped? Recently, I traveled to Mississippi for Mary's first interview, just two weeks after her release from a mental institution. -[Oprah] Hello, Mary. -Hey. Hi, Oprah. -Nice to meet you. -Nice to meet you. I'm sitting here. -Okay. -You can sit here. Thank you for doing this today. [Mary] Thank you. So tell me why you wanted to have this conversation today? Why did you want to talk to me? [Mary] Up to my life at this point, I can't have done all this in vain. And I cannot sit back if there's anything I could do to help somebody else. That is my goal at this time. All right, let's start here. Let's start with how you met. Hmm. How'd you meet Matthew? We were at school together, but we were friends and our friendship furthered and then began dating. Mm-hmm. This dating, how was dating? -It was fantastic. -Did he romance you? Mm-hmm, we just, uh, clicked. We had a great time. [woman] 21-year-old Mary Freeman met Matthew Winkler in 1995. After transferring to Freed Hardeman University. That's in Henderson, Tennessee. Matthew was described as popular, charismatic and athletic. Fellow students remember Mary as quiet and unassuming, with a nice smile. After dating for just three months, Matthew proposed. So after you got married, how was the relationship? -Well... -This is what you expected marriage to be? No. Um... I just remember some point... Just being shocked. At the yelling and the... just this different person. How soon after you married did that happen? I would say two, three months. Two or three months? Yes. And what surprised you the most? Did you see a side of him that you hadn't seen? Mm-hmm and the things that he would say just up the wall and I didn't understand where he was coming from, I didn't understand his train of thought. -Like what? -Um, he just, one day he may encourage me to be with family. And then another day, he may say, we're never talking to them again. It's just, it was just sad. I mean, I don't think he knew exactly all that he was thinking all the time, and it's just, there was no consistency. Starting several months after you married? Now I would say the consistency got worse, into-- His big thing, really, at first, 'cause our marriage was just his, uh... rage. Just I'd never seen anything like it. And I remember my daddy had a book, a desk, and then I took it with me when I got married and we had storage problems, anyway, it wouldn't fit right. And I mean, he just busted it up with his hands and I now look back on that and that is so sad. But at the time, I remember being so embarrassed, and all I cared about was that nobody was looking outside their apartment. That's all I thought of, was that I don't want anybody to see his behavior. Were there other examples of him being enraged? You said the thing that shocked you the most if I'm interpreting you correctly, is during the first year of your marriage, was his rage. And how did that rage show itself in other ways? With the rage against you. Mm-hmm, just a certain thing, um. See, I can tell you one thing. What was the reason to begin anything. It just if something upset him, if he's having a bad day, that was just all there was about it. There was no, it was just, get out the way. Um, he... He was just verbally... could just say some very horrible things. Like what? Weight, hair, long or short. Family, friends, keeping up the house. Something about the girls. Just very, very critical. How did his persona as the pastor of the church and the picture that was painted, that you helped him paint. How did that differ from who he really was and who you were together? The public image of Matthew, it would be his dynamic. I feel like and I always feel like, I will always hold to the fact of who he really was, his real self. He just was charismatic, and it was just... It was just that contrast at home in a relaxing setting where he could just, um, lose control. And then, but now, at the time you think you had these things you think, you know, I just I didn't want anybody knowing anything. Now, since the tragic event people will say that he would lose his temper with others, too, and I just didn't know about it. Okay, so tell me how you then contributed to this painting of this picture. How important was it for you to be the perfect couple? Number one important. More important than your private pain? Yes. That's what I've gotten to.

Did he hit you often? Um... Now... 'cause I could usually, I just, all I ever focused on was keeping him happy and trying to help him. Did he hit you often? Um... Now... 'cause I could usually, I just, all I ever focused on was keeping him happy and trying to help him. And trying to steer clear. Mm-hmm, so he didn't hit you often? So the one time I had seen on Good Morning America where your father said he'd seen a bruise or thought that you had covered up a bruise, was he accurate? Were you covering up bruises? And when your father asked you about the bruise, you denied it. Oh, yeah. I saw terrible bruising. Uh, the heaviest of makeup covering facial bruises. So one day, I confronted her. I said, "You are coming off as a very abused wife." Very battered. Mary would hang her head and say, "No, Dad, everything's all right. Everything's all right." Why did you tell that lie to your father? It's just how I wanted it to be. You wanted him to, your father to also think it was the perfect couple. Mm-hmm. How bad was it? Was it bad enough you don't want to get out? Oh, yes. Um, I did ask for a divorce... And that was not allowed. How long ago was that? Or how long into the marriage? Six, seven years into the marriage. You wanted the divorce because? It just was so bad and, uh, he did too, um, you know, we talked about it and, um, that's when the few times I ever spoke up -and really said what I thought... -What did you say? Just, he said, "Do you want a divorce?" I said "Yes." And I think it just surprised him. Um, because of course, that wasn't something that could be followed through. -Because by that time, he was a preacher? -Mm-hmm. And it just... there towards the end of her marriage, it just got to the point I just was worn out from trying to remember everything and trying to do it as he would like it. Um... I was just, it was just too much. did you ever say to him, "I'm worn out? "This is too much. What can I do? "I've done everything I can." Did you ever, ever speak up for yourself? Other than the time he asked, do you want a divorce? No. And that's where I will always grieve the fact where I failed Matthew in not bringing it to his attention. How bad it was. You testified that Matthew had threatened you with a shotgun many times. How? How did he do that? How does that happen? Well, I was pointing it, um, just scenarios of how accidents could happen. He would say that to you? That accidents do happen. Did you feel threatened by him? Did you ever think he would harm you? At some point not terribly long ago, I really... he just got my attention at some point and I very much so thought that this, this really could happen. I've heard that he had said to you at one point he would have you chopped in a million little pieces. Is that what he said? Yeah, he would do it himself. He would do what? Chop me into a million pieces. Coming up, a "get rich quick" scam, sexual dress-up games and the moments leading up to the killing. More, with Mary Winkler. In March 2006, just last year, Matthew Winkler, a 31-year-old pastor and father of three children, was found shot dead in his bedroom. His wife, Mary, confessed to killing him. She spent just seven months in custody, leaving many people to ask, was justice served here? In her first interview, Mary reveals what she claims led to this killing and what she describes as the humiliating secrets of their private life. In court, you were asked to identify this, like white platform shoes and a wig. And you said that he made you put on those things. -Hmm. -Yeah. Why was that shoe there? Matthew want me to wear it. What he made you [indistinct] To dress up. -Dress up? -Yes, sir. Dress up for what purpose, Mary? -Sex. -[man] Sex? In court you also said you felt that you were sexually abused. -Hmm. -How so? You know when two people have taste and likes, it's fine for each person in their own home who agrees. But just at some point, when there's one person saying, no, not to do something, then the other person has just push themselves on that person -and made them do that. -So he would force you to do what? Um... Just sexual acts that I didn't want to do. Mm-hmm. I think in court you said watch pornography, but you didn't want to do oral and anal sex, which you thought were unnatural acts. Correct? And when he would force you to do it and you didn't want to do it, would you tell him? Would you say to him I don't want to do it? At the moment, no, I know there were certain times where my natural reaction would been to push him off, and, uh, he would stop that when we were not in the heat of the moment and he would say, what you think about this or that? And I would say, "No, don't like that, let's not." And he'd say, "Okay." Then he just would get going and that was just it. Yeah, so do you regret that you didn't stand up for yourself? Do you regret that you didn't say, you know, at least with your own body. This is not something I want to do. Oh, my, yes. -And I wish. -I won't go there with you. Right and also that's just another when the many things that I think of daily where I failed Matthew, that just became something ingrained in him at a very young age and he just had to have the bigger and better and more whereas I wish so much we could have stopped and he could have gotten some help. How to deal with that and try to get that out of his mind.

To be satisfied more naturally. [Oprah] In court, Mary was questioned about a statement she gave to police the night of her arrest. She said she and Matthew had argued about money the day before the shooting. To be satisfied more naturally. [Oprah] In court, Mary was questioned about a statement she gave to police the night of her arrest. She said she and Matthew had argued about money the day before the shooting. Prosecutors say Mary, who was the family bookkeeper, made 16 bank transfers by telephone in the days leading up to her husband's death. They say she'd been caught up in a money scam and was trying to hide it from her husband. The prosecution said that you and Matthew were having serious financial troubles and that that might have driven you to kill your husband. Mmm. Was he aware that you were involved in the scam? Well, we didn't realize it was a scam, but he knew of the money. He knew of the money, and he couldn't have been happy about that. Yes. But that's not so much something that I would got in trouble for because he was in charge of all that. I signed every check, wrote every bill. But he told me where to put it and where everything went. I didn't do anything without him telling me. So, he knew you were involved in the scam. Well, he was involved too. I mean, I did, I never did anything alone. I never did anything without him telling me, too. And so you're saying that money, that scam or the loss of that money had nothing to do with you shooting him? Oh, no. We've been in financial dire straits many times. All right, I need you to take me back to the day that this occurred. I need you to take me back to March 22nd, and tell me what was going on in your life in your family. March 22nd, 2006. [Oprah] According to Mary's statement to police just after 6:00 in the morning, the Winklers house on Molly Drive was quiet. Mary and Matthew were asleep in their bed. The Winklers youngest daughter, one year old Brianna, began crying from her crib. According to Mary, Matthew woke up in a rage and stormed into Brianna's room. So I went in there after him and took the baby to bring in a... asked him, let me have her and... Got her settled back down. [Oprah] I had read, I don't know if it's true. That's why I'm interviewing you. That he literally kicked you out of bed. So when I read that, I thought, like with his feet kicked you out of bed? Is that true? That's correct. So he physically kicked you out of bed, like get out of bed. Yes, but this was just something. He just would get irate with that baby monitor and Brianna crying to wake him up, it just, it just, that's just something would that would set him off. -So the baby was crying and he kicked you? -Mm-hmm. Walk me through the series of events that led to his death. -Both of you are in the room with the baby. -Mm-hmm. And I just got her away from him and stopped him. Now, is it true... I'd read this, that he was trying to suffocate her? Mm-hmm. He was trying to suffocate her? He was trying to get her to go back to sleep. He, I don't think he had intentions of killing. He just... -Trying to get her to pass out. -What was he doing? Get her to pass out? No, really, you have to explain that because that doesn't make any sense to me or anybody else was hearing this. I don't understand it myself. What did he do? Just covered her mouth and her nose. Okay, so on this particular day, March 22nd, you see him cover the baby's mouth and cover the baby's nose. And then you take the baby from him, and you are obviously upset. And what, he walked away? Hmm, yeah, he just, um... And then what? I got her. Got her situated, and I just wanted to talk to Matthew. Mm-hmm. And there's just that awful, awful sound. When we come back, why Mary says she shot her husband, Matthew. [Oprah] On March 22nd 2006, Mary Winkler shot and killed her pastor husband, Matthew. A ccording to Mary, this is what happened. Just after 6:00 a.m. Matthew was awakened by the cries of his one-year-old daughter, Brianna. Furious, he kicked Mary out of bed, and they went to tend to their child. Shortly after, Matthew returned to their bedroom. Mary followed and was soon holding a 12-gauge shotgun. I just wanted to talk to Matthew. [Oprah] Mm-hmm. And there's just that awful sound. And then I just, my first direction, I ran. -You have to hold up here a minute because, um... -Okay. You wanted to talk to him, and then the next thing you say is you hear the sound of the shotgun. -I just... -Where was the shotgun? Was a shotgun in the baby's room? No, we kept it in the closet. Mm-hmm. It's just I... that don't make sense to many. -[Oprah] Yeah. -Um... -Well, imagine it doesn't make sense to me either. -I know. I know. -Mmm. -Okay. So you're in your room and you go to your room... and your husband's room because you want to talk to him. -Mmm-hmm. -Is he back in the bed? Where is he? In the room. Where do you recall where he was in the room? Yeah, he was sitting back down. Did you say "I want to talk to you"? I said... I at least said, "Matthew," but he wouldn't... he just wouldn't respond.

What had he said to you about the baby? Mmm, just generalities. "Shut her up. Um, this is ridiculous. What had he said to you about the baby? Mmm, just generalities. "Shut her up. Um, this is ridiculous. "That shouldn't have happened." It's ridiculous that she should wake up in the morning and cry. Yep. And you don't remember going into the closet to get the shotgun? You don't remember thinking, "I'm going to get the shotgun"? Mmm. I jut... I just know I was terrified of him, and I just wanted to talk to him. So how did you end up holding a shotgun? It was my fear. I was just so afraid of him. You were afraid of him. And I just... I never in a million years would have dreamed... that there would have been something in that. -And... -In that... -The gun being loaded. -In the gun. I just thought that was a rule, that he always took that out. Did you want to hold the gun to get his attention? That's what I would think. That's just... just so... I just wanted to talk to him. And you wanted to talk to him holding a gun? I was so afraid. Because you thought he would do what? At that point, I felt like my life was in danger. So you chose to speak to him by getting the gun. What did you want to say? Just to stop... Just... ...to be happy. He just... He had to be miserable... the way he acted,. and... just to stop being so mean. Mmm. And just relax and enjoy life. -That's what you wanted to say to him... -Mmm-hmm. ...with the shotgun. Did you think that the shotgun would intimidate him? Or were you trying to scare him? Were you using it as support for yourself? Why the shotgun? Why couldn't you just say that? "Matthew, relax. Be happy. "Calm down. "Enjoy life." He never would have allowed that. I mean, I'm safely sitting here right now, -thinking of what I wish I could have said to him... -Mmm-hmm. ...in the heat of the moment... -that was not realistic. -Mmm-hmm. So you got the shotgun because you wanted to do what, Mary? I can't tell you an actual memory of a thought. Mmm-hmm. But today, when I think back... 'cause I asked the same question myself, -to myself... -Yeah. "What in the world happened and how did this happen?" And that's all I can think. It's just being so afraid. And I don't know if it was to intimidate him -or just to get his attention. -Mmm-hmm. -Well, shotgun's a big thing. -Mmm-hmm. So you obviously I think you have to pick... Obviously picked it up and you aim. Do you have to put it over your... Not over your shoulder. But you have to... you know, it's a shot gun. [Mary] Um, yeah. Had you ever fired a shotgun before? So you say you picked up the gun, obviously. And the gun is aimed at him at some point. Do you remember that? Well, no, because the... when it... When I heard the boom, I thought... I just thought that it would have hit the ceiling, the window. And I just thought, "Oh, my goodness, "he's going to think I meant to do that on purpose." And so I took out. I took out of there and took off running. And then, at some point, um, I just realized he wasn't chasing me, and I just had to go back in and face the realization. Where were the girls? I want to say they were watching TV. -That's just such a blur. -Mmm-hmm. Or they may have still been in their bedroom. I just can't tell you that 100%. And you go back in and you walk into the room and you see what? Just lying there. Was he dead when you went back into the room? -That's what I thought so. -Yeah. -Did he say anything? -No. No, there's nothing. Coming up... Mary's final moments with Matthew. [Oprah] After shooting him with a single shotgun blast, then leaving the house, Mary Winkler returned to find her husband Matthew's body on the floor in their bedroom. Is it true that you leaned over him and wiped his mouth or wiped his forehead? -His mouth. -His mouth. [Mary] Mmm-hmm. It was bleeding, and I just... Like, just instinct to wipe his mouth, but it just kept coming and... I just... I didn't know how he was hurt. I couldn't see anything wrong with him. Um, but, I mean, it's just something you just don't know unless you've actually seen somebody. Um... [sighs] It's just... when you actually see somebody that's just done, they just, they just change appearance in a matter of seconds. Um... Just terrible. [Oprah] According to the autopsy report, the single shell Mary fired from the shotgun pumped 77 pellets into Matthew's back. He survived for several minutes, but without medical attention, he bled to death. One of your daughters come into the room? No, um... I'd read that one of your daughters came into the room. Right. She said that she looked in the room, I believe. This is off the top of my head. Um, I don't think came in, and I could not tell you from my memory. -And you said, "Daddy had been hurt." -Mmm-hmm. Do you recall that? I'm sure I don't remember that exactly. But I know that I did say that he was hurt. And so then what? What did you do? I just took off. We just ran away. I grabbed Breanna, I tell the girls, "Get in the van." Where were you planning on going? Uh, I had no idea.

Did you think you were going to be able to get away with it? No. No, his parents were on vacation, -or I would have gone straight to their house -Mm-hmm. Did you think you were going to be able to get away with it? No. No, his parents were on vacation, -or I would have gone straight to their house -Mm-hmm. And we just drove. At some point, I thought we were going to Memphis. And the the next thing I knew, we were in Mississippi. I can remember that. Um... I had no idea. And then I just... It was getting light, and I just looked -for an indoor swimming pool for the girls. -Mmm-hmm. Um... I just wanted to be with them and have some good times and then take them to the Winklers. -Because you knew. -That something very bad had happened. Well, two days after the shooting, Mary was apprehended nearly 400 miles from home in the parking lot of a Winn-Dixie grocery store after an amber alert had been issued for her three girls. Officers describe Mary as stoic, with a blank look on her face. Coming up... The heated custody battle. Do you still think about Matthew? -Oh, yes. -Mmm-hmm. I do love him. I think of the good times, the dreams... I just... That's my girls' daddy. I just... I love Matthew. It was very bad, but it could be very good. Your lawyers say that you're not the same Mary that you were in 2006 when this all happened. -No. -How so? I communicate better. Just speak up when there's something that I don't like, -what I disagree with... -Mmm-hmm. ...and encourage... I'm just finding who I am. Just realizing... I broke a piece of... The visor thing on my car broke one time, and it absolutely terrified me. But I could calm myself and remind myself that I broke it, it was my car, and it's okay. Just simple things like that. And what price did you have to pay to get to this point? Mmm. I'm still paying it. During the abuse, all those years, did you ever think about killing him? No, I never thought it. Mmm-mmm. -Never once? -Mmm-mmm. No. I felt so dependent on him. I couldn't imagine life without him. You know... [Oprah] Six days after Matthew's death, hundreds of mourners gathered at the small Selmer church where Matthew had been the pastor. With police approval, the Winklers allowed Mary to spend a private moment with Matthew's body. She spent an hour alone with him. When you look back on that time, that morning, the closet, the shotgun, firing the shotgun... do you think that you just snapped? Something very bad happened. Do you feel that you served enough time for this crime? There's no amount of time, I think, you can put on something like this. Um... No, I just was ready for them to lock... lock the door, throw away the key. Do you want your children back? Oh, yes. Why do you think you should have your children back? I'm their mother. You killed their father. I did not want any of this to happen. [Oprah] Since her arrest, Mary's three young daughters have been living with Matthew's parents, Dan and Diane Winkler. You've never told your girls you're sorry. Don't you think you at least owe them that? You've never told us you're sorry. I think you at least owe us that. [Oprah] The Winklers have since filed a suit to terminate Mary's parental rights so that they can adopt their three granddaughters. What do you want to say to the Winklers? After all, you killed their son, your husband, your children's father. Mmm-hmm. [Oprah] What do you want to say to them? I don't know that there's something I would say in two or three sentences today in the show for them to watch. I still long to sit and talk with them. [Oprah] Mmm-hmm. -I just... I love them and I miss them. -Mmm-hmm. And I've told them I was sorry. Uh, I pray for... every night, for God to give them peace and give them a good night's rest. And I pray for them every morning -that they have a peace and a good day. -Mmm-hmm. Do you think you will ever be able to explain to them why you killed their son? What would you say? Just when that comes, that time comes, my heart will tell me what to say. Through their attorneys, we invited Matthew's parents, Dan and Diane Winkler, to participate today. Our request went unanswered. On behalf of their three granddaughters, they have filed a two million dollar wrongful death civil suit against Mary. Was justice served in the Mary Winkler trial? We're going to talk about that when we come back. So, Lisa Bloom's an anchor and legal analyst for Court TV. Yeah, you've seen her many times, and she covered Mary's case from start to finish. Were you surprised by the verdict? What did you think of the verdict? At Court TV, a collective gasp went up at this verdict, Oprah. We all thought this was a first degree murder case. The difference between murder and manslaughter, which she was convicted of, premeditation. Didn't Mary make a decision to wait for her husband to fall asleep? Didn't she make a decision to go into the closet and get that gun to point it at Matthew and to pull the trigger? Those are all decisions that usually add up to premeditation. But it didn't in this case. Yeah. Do you think there's a lot we didn't hear in this trial? Well, as a lawyer and a journalist, I'm always concerned when we only hear one side.

-Of course we'll never hear Matthew's side way. -Mmm-hmm. We don't know to what extent he would deny this abuse or a claim that it was exaggerated. We just won't know. We do know that there wasn't much corroboration at the trial, -Of course we'll never hear Matthew's side way. -Mmm-hmm. We don't know to what extent he would deny this abuse or a claim that it was exaggerated. We just won't know. We do know that there wasn't much corroboration at the trial, -yet the jury believed Mary's story. -Mmm-hmm. So what do you think got her off? I think this was a community that was different from New York or Los Angeles or Chicago. This is a community that rallied around Mary. People said before the trial, "If she killed him, she must have had a good reason." -Mmm. -People backed her. They believed in her. And when the shoe, that stripper shoe, was next to her on the stand, and she hung her head low, that's the kind of thing you might have laughed at in a big city, but in that small town, I think people really believed that she was humiliated. Well, in this audience, do you all realize that you all gasped when you saw that shoe? Everybody gasped when they saw that shoe. So how heavily do you think the shoe and her descriptions of unnatural sex acts... -She said, "He made me have sex in my bottom..." -Right. Anal sex. Ten women on the jury. -Yeah, and he made her. -Yeah. You know, we didn't get a lot of detail about what that means that he made her. Did he suggest it? Did he strongly encourage it? Did he threaten her with violence? We really never got to the bottom of it. But there's no question that her demeanor, her soft spokenness, hanging her head low, her difficulty in even getting the words out, it was very convincing to the jury. Well, we have Mary's attorneys here. Leslie Ballon and Steve Farese are Mary's attorneys. So, tell us where the custody case stands right now. Well, right now, my sister Kate Turner's handling the custody matter. It's my understanding that on September 19th, there will be a hearing to determine when Mary will be able to see her children again, because she hasn't seen them in almost a year. Legally, is that possibility that she will get her children back, Leslie? Not only is it legally possible, I strongly feel that it should happen. She needs those kids, and more importantly, they need her. We'll be right back. [man] I think that in the end he was one that was put on trial... because he might have done some bad things to hurt her. But she in the end took his life and took him away from his kids, which I think is a shame. Whatever she did, she will answer for someday. That's between her and God. I kinda understand what she's going through and what she's been through, 'cause I've seen people in that kind of shape, and I wish they'd let her have her kids back. Well, Mary Winkler, actually, I think she got away with murder. I mean, shot her husband in the back while he slept. Uh, what else would you call it? We really don't know what really happened. And the woman needs a second chance. Well, those were some of the residents of McMinnville, Tennessee, uh, where Mary now lives. Leslie Ballon, her attorney, says not only does he feel that she should have the children back, but the children need her, and she needs the children. What is your opinion, Lisa, here? You know, whether justice was done to Mary Winkler or not, I think what we know for sure -is a grave injustice was done to these children. -[Oprah] Yeah. The oldest daughter saw her father dying, bleeding on the floor. The phone was unplugged, so he couldn't call 911. These children were taken by Mary with a shotgun in the car. For two days, the phone was unplugged in the hotel room so they couldn't call 011. They've been in a stable, loving family for a year, Oprah. And this is a woman who has such poor impulse control that she solves her problems with gun violence. I'm not comfortable giving them back to her completely now. I think we could start out with some supervised visitation. Certainly she should have contact with the children, but I don't think she should have complete custody yet. Why did you want to defend her? Mary needed help. This was a woman that was totally alone, totally abandoned by all... There was something in her eyes, there was something in her tone that I knew there was something there. And, uh, I just felt like it was the right thing to do. I can't answer that question other than I just felt that she needed help. And this would be the right thing to do. You think the shoe got her off? The shoe and the subsequent stories about, uh, in her words "unnatural sex acts"? You know, we have to be careful semantically, Oprah, because when you say 'stories', you make a note that maybe this is not true. I mean, her telling... her telling-- And I understand that. I'm just saying that she was telling us something that was very believable to me-- -I'm not implying that she was making up. -[Steve] Right. -I'm just saying what she said. -Right. And I believe not only what she said, but like my father always taught me, -"It's not what you say, it's how you said it." -[Oprah] Yeah. I think that is what got a hold of these jurors. And one more thing, you know, it was mentioned that there were ten women jurors. -Mmm-hmm. -Well, that's the way our country does justice. -And she truly did have a jury of her peers. -Of her peers. Thank you for being here today. -Leslie, Steve, Lisa, thank you all. -Thank you. And, Mary, thank you for the interview. Thank you for giving me your time.

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