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[MUSIC] OPRAH WINFREY: I'm surrounded by seven cheating men. WINFREY: Didn't you end up with somebody at your son's day care? You had sex in your own home. Did everybody keep their rings on while you were cheating? Backstage, their wives watch them tell all. Now they must face each other. You actually caught him in an apartment. DANINE: Right after we got married. WINFREY: All of these tears don't mean a damn thing. Tell her the truth. Next. WINFREY: I'm in a room surrounded by cheaters. All of these men admit they have cheated on their wives, a total of, if you added it all up, from what they're telling me, 32 times. Now they have agreed to speak honestly and answer any questions that I'm going to ask here today. Everybody has made that agreement, right? Unidentified Panelist: Right. STEPHEN: Yes. Several Unidentified Panelists: Yes. WINFREY: So I'm looking forward to the opportunity to really shed some light on what it is, what it is in the psyche that causes men to cheat. What do you think it is? TERENCE: I think a lot of men are selfish. WINFREY: Terence has had countless flings. TERENCE: It was sex. It was stoking your ego. WINFREY: He says affairs of the heart are the risky ones. TERENCE: The second affair I had was crucial to my marriage because I got emotionally involved. I didn't like it, but at the same time, it felt good; not just the sex, just being around her. WINFREY: His wife has threatened to leave him. TERENCE: It started being very selfish before my marriage and I took my selfishness into my marriage, not thinking about her or her feelings or anything like that, and just thinking about what I wanted. WINFREY: OK. You married. RYANT: Yes. WINFREY: And you had a mistress, Ryant. RYANT: I had two girlfriends, and one eventually turned out to be my wife. WINFREY: OK. RYANT: And I didn't actually stop seeing the other girl. RYANT: Now I'm not going to lie. I was a very weak person when it came to women. I had to be weaned a little bit, not suddenly. WINFREY: After Ryant's wife found out about his first affair, he pledged his fidelity, but old habits die hard. RYANT: If I was alone with a woman, I would be immediately thinking about sleeping with her. I was a good old-fashioned ho. WINFREY: His next mistress was an old girlfriend. RYANT: The affair lasted about a year, year and a half. Probably two to three times a week I would see this woman. I played basketball, so I could always say I'm out of town playing in a tournament. There were a lot of ways to really get around getting caught. WINFREY: So you have a girlfriend, and you ask somebody else to marry you. RYANT: Yes. WINFREY: So why? RYANT: At the time, I knew I wasn't ready for marriage. WINFREY: Did she think you had other girlfriends? RYANT: I told her I'd stopped. WINFREY: OK. So you were lying. RYANT: Yes. WINFREY: OK. RYANT: And--but I--what I actually did was cut everybody else loose. WINFREY: Except that other girlfriend. RYANT: And I actually told the other girl that `I don't want to be with you. I decided to be with my future wife.' WINFREY: That `I'm going to marry somebody else.' RYANT: In the--yes. WINFREY: So you continued to be with her. RYANT: Yes, she said--she agreed to see me anywhere. WINFREY: Did you have a wedding? RYANT: Yes, we did. WINFREY: You walked down an aisle and dum-dum-de-dum--were you doing the dum-dum-de-dum... RYANT: Yes. WINFREY: ...the whole thing, the wedding march, and you stood there and you said `I do'... RYANT: Yes. WINFREY: ...and you knew you had another girlfriend at the time. RYANT: Yes, I did. WINFREY: How soon after saying your vows did you see the other girl? RYANT: Maybe two days. WINFREY: Two days. RYANT: Yes. So it just never stopped. WINFREY: So how did you feel about that? RYANT: To be honest, I didn't really feel anything at the time. WINFREY: OK. RYANT: Because it's something that I've always done. WINFREY: OK. Terence, you've had multiple affairs? TERENCE: I had a couple affairs, three affairs. WINFREY: So when you say a couple, a few, what does that really mean? TERENCE: Well, I think one of the main affairs I had--that I got involved with someone on an emotional level... WINFREY: OK. TERENCE: ...not just on a sexual basis. And... WINFREY: So you separate them according to main and not. TERENCE: Well, if--you--I ge... WINFREY: No, I'm just asking. TERENCE: No, I'm not separating them. WINFREY: OK. Why can't you say the number? TERENCE: I don't want to. WINFREY: You don't want to. TERENCE: No. WINFREY: Because why? TERENCE: I don't want to. WINFREY: Just because you don't want to. TERENCE: Right. WINFREY: OK, good. You don't have to if you don't want to. Would we be shocked by the number? TERENCE: You'd probably be a little upset. WINFREY: I'm not going to be upset one way or the other. TERENCE: I mean, you said `Would we,' so... WINFREY: Yeah. OK. TERENCE: You know... WINFREY: No, I'm not going to be upset one way or the other. TERENCE: No, it's not--I just don't--I prefer not to. WINFREY: OK. But you know by not saying the number now, I'm thinking like 35. TERENCE: And you could be thinking a hundred. I mean... WINFREY: It's OK, it's OK. But the number--is the reason why you won't say the number because--What?--other than you just don't want to? TERENCE: There's no need. There's no need. Be one, twice, three times, you still hurt the person, you know what I mean? It's no need. You know... WINFREY: Would the number embarrass you? TERENCE: Oh, that's--you're good, Oprah. Yeah, it would.
WINFREY: It would embarrass you to say that? TERENCE: Yeah, it would. WINFREY: OK. OK. I accept that. So you started cheating because of what, Terence? And how early--how soon into your marriage? WINFREY: It would embarrass you to say that? TERENCE: Yeah, it would. WINFREY: OK. OK. I accept that. So you started cheating because of what, Terence? And how early--how soon into your marriage? TERENCE: About three years after my marriage. WINFREY: And started cheating because? TERENCE: You know, you just--for whatever pleasure reasons you want to do it for. And one thing led to another quite a few times. WINFREY: Quite a few times. TERENCE: Yeah. WINFREY: OK. John? JOHN: When I started, it was about three and a half years into my marriage. WINFREY: John says he secretly cheated with two women at work. JOHN: We would fool around in the car on the way to lunch. WINFREY: One of his infidelities happened right in front of his wife, Amy. JOHN: It was a wife of a friend. We were all in the hot tub just screwing around or whatever. And she sucked on my toe, and I liked it. WINFREY: Just three months ago, Amy discovered some old e-mails between John and his first mistress and realized he's been cheating for five years. JOHN: She had just had our second child, and we were constantly fighting, and I just--I came to work one day almost in tears because I couldn't handle what was going on at home. And... WINFREY: So there was a major disconnect at home. JOHN: Major disconnect, major--no communication happening. And it just happened that, you know, this woman I was working with said, `OK, you know, talk to me about it.' And... WINFREY: Oh, boy. JOHN: And it just sort of--you know, it went from there. WINFREY: She became the understanding... JOHN: Yes, it was totally emotional. The three affairs I had, we never had sex. I never had sex with any of them. It was all emotional affairs. It was all connecting with this other person. Now with the first person, yes, it got to the point that there was some fooling around, and I would have had sex with her had the opportunity presented itself. WINFREY: How recently has it been since you... JOHN: Three months. WINFREY: Three months, yeah, since you confessed? JOHN: No, since the first affair came out. She knew about two and three. She found out about the first one through some e-mails that I had left on the computer and forgotten about, and she was poking around for something else entirely and found them. Two and three were very mild in comparison, but the first one was the--there were a lot of vivid details with it. There was a lot said in these e-mails. WINFREY: OK. We're not done yet. We'll be right back. Next, do happily married men stray? They say yes. We will find out why. And later, the wives are watching backstage. For their reactions, stay tuned. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: So I'm here surrounded by seven men who all admit that they've cheated; seven cheaters, husbands who are speaking candidly about why they did cheat on their wives and giving us really detailed accounts of how they did it and why they did it. Did everybody keep their rings on while you were... BRIAN: I never had one. (Unintelligible). TERENCE: Well, you have some women who absolutely like married men, not taking responsibility off of myself... WINFREY: Yeah. TERENCE: ...you know what I mean? I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But some women--so why would you if your girl... Unidentified Panelist: You're absolutely right. Unidentified Panelist: They feel so much safer. WINFREY: OK. Did you have one affair or several affairs? STEPHEN: One. STEPHEN: I had an affair for just about 12 months. She was an employee at a day-care facility where my son and my daughter attended. WINFREY: The affair started with romantic lunches and rapidly progressed. STEPHEN: With each opportunity that we had a chance to speak, the fire grew hotter, and it was just the anticipation, you know, just was starting to build. WINFREY: Soon their relationship became physical. They consummated their affair in Stephen's family van. STEPHEN: Once we broke the ice on it, you know, the van was like OK, move this seat here, move that seat there and lean that seat back. It's good. WINFREY: Eventually the other woman threatened to tell Stephen's wife. STEPHEN: I didn't get busted. I confessed. WINFREY: How long had you been married before the affair? STEPHEN: Probably about a year... WINFREY: About a year. STEPHEN: ...about a year in, we had been married. WINFREY: A year in. STEPHEN: A year in--a year. WINFREY: Aren't you still supposed to be in the like, la-dee-dah period? STEPHEN: You would think. WINFREY: Yeah. But you weren't in the la-dee-dah period. STEPHEN: You would think. No. We were far removed from the la-dee-dah, and it was slipping. And there was no way to address it with my wife's schedule, and there were times... WINFREY: She was working 50 to 60 hours a week, I heard. STEPHEN: Yeah. WINFREY: Yeah. STEPHEN: Easily. WINFREY: Yeah? STEPHEN: Easily. So she wasn't always available.
And I'm the type of person where I need my wife to be accessible. I need to pick up the phone and say, `Hey, what's up? You ain't gonna believe this.' Couldn't do that. And it just--it used to frustrate me. And I'm the type of person where I need my wife to be accessible. I need to pick up the phone and say, `Hey, what's up? You ain't gonna believe this.' Couldn't do that. And it just--it used to frustrate me. I felt like a single parent that was married. It's frustrating. And it'll motivate you to try to seek out the other half of what you're missing if... WINFREY: Were you actively seeking to be with someone else? STEPHEN: I don't think I was actively seeking. I think it just kind of found me and... WINFREY: Because didn't you end up with somebody at your son's day care? STEPHEN: Yeah, which is kind of interesting in itself. Having the child led to, you know, seeing this other woman. Just in my daily interaction at the day care, saw this young lady that I found quite attractive, as did she find me the same. And it just kind... WINFREY: How did it start? STEPHEN: I--the common interest. `Your son's cute.' And the conversation just kind of grew from--it just kind of manifested from `Your son's cute' to... WINFREY: That thing happens... STEPHEN: There's... WINFREY: ...that eye contact thing, that thing, right? STEPHEN: You know, the read. MIKE: The click. STEPHEN: `You like me, and I know it.' WINFREY: You like me and I know it. STEPHEN: Yeah. WINFREY: OK. STEPHEN: That read. WINFREY: Tell me if you think this is true, that men don't have affairs just for sex, that men leave their wives because of the way the other woman makes them feel. STEPHEN: Oh, wow. WINFREY: Do you agree with that? Unidentified Panelist: Yes. WINFREY: Do you agree with that or not? Unidentified Panelist: Yeah, I agree with that. Unidentified Panelist: I agree with that point. RYANT: I agree with it. Unidentified Panelist: ...(Unintelligible) emotion... WINFREY: She makes you feel important. She makes you feel valued. She makes you feel heard. She makes you feel wanted. Unidentified Panelist: Right. WINFREY: She makes you feel--Yes?--important. RYANT: Well, it's another situation because halfway in the middle of my marriage, I had another relationship, and it's everything that you said, you know. She made me feel different than my wife. And when later on just a... WINFREY: When you say in the middle of your relationship that's when you... RYANT: Because the first one was at the beginning. I got married and I saw this woman for a while. I stopped for a while. WINFREY: Why did you stop? RYANT: Because my wife caught me. She started being two and three steps ahead of me. My wife is very smart. She... WINFREY: Did everybody get caught here? Everybody got caught. BRIAN: I admitted. WINFREY: You admitted. BRIAN: Confessed to my wife. WINFREY: How long had your affair been going on? BRIAN: Two and a half months. BRIAN: I met the other woman through work. I was involved in construction. WINFREY: At first Brian wanted nothing more than friendship. BRIAN: I felt that she looked at me kind of with these really admiring eyes and really kind of stroked my ego. And I thought, `Wow, man, I feel kind of like a real stud.' WINFREY: After two months of flirting, he started sleeping with the other woman. BRIAN: The first time that we ever had sex was in her home. Then there was a couple other incidences where we ended up getting a room. WINFREY: Confessed to your wife why? BRIAN: That's right. I felt it was--I had an obligation to her. I did love my wife. I never got into the relationship with the other woman because I was dissatisfied with my wife. I still loved her in every way, and I just didn't understand. There was certainly an emotional connection I had to the other woman. WINFREY: Let me ask this. Does a happily married man stray? TERENCE: When you're happily married... BRIAN: Define happily married. TERENCE: ...your main focus... STEPHEN: No... Unidentified Panelist: I was happy. BRIAN: I would say yeah, sure. WINFREY: You were happily married. BRIAN: I was happily married. WINFREY: So how did the affair occur? BRIAN: I met this other woman at work and we shared some common interests. And there was, like, a pulling towards this person. She stroked my ego because all of a sudden she made me feel like I was the king there. It was really a fantasy that we were living in. WINFREY: How long before you became intimate? BRIAN: Two months. WINFREY: In two months. BRIAN: Yeah. WINFREY: Where did you have sex? Can you tell us? BRIAN: At her place. WINFREY: At her place, uh-huh. And was she OK with it? Did she know you were married? BRIAN: Yeah, she was married, too. WINFREY: She was married, too. BRIAN: Yeah. WINFREY: Chris, tell me, you were married for 15 years... CHRIS: Yeah. WINFREY: ...and never cheated. CHRIS: No. WINFREY: So what happened? CHRIS: I had an affair. It lasted six months. WINFREY: Chris met his mistress at a Cub Scouts meeting. She was the den mother. Both of them were married.
CHRIS: You see somebody, and, you know, you just--something clicks. You feel the chemistry. WINFREY: Soon they were sneaking to secret places in their suburban neighborhood to have sex. CHRIS: We would meet behind the department store, CHRIS: You see somebody, and, you know, you just--something clicks. You feel the chemistry. WINFREY: Soon they were sneaking to secret places in their suburban neighborhood to have sex. CHRIS: We would meet behind the department store, park next to the police station or meet in the park, whatever excuse we could come up with to get together. I was happily married. I just--all of a sudden, I had--I noticed somebody was adoring me. WINFREY: Did I hear the amen choir over here? Panelists: (In unison) Yeah. WINFREY: Yeah, they all went, `Amen.' Somebody was adoring you. CHRIS: Yeah. Because, you know, after you're married for a while... Unidentified Panelist: You're old news. CHRIS: ...I guess the adoration sort of... WINFREY: You're old news. CHRIS: Yeah, right. You're old news. WINFREY: Yeah. RYANT: Take out the garbage. CHRIS: Right, so it's really nice to be adored. WINFREY: Somebody was adoring you. OK. And I see your eyes watering on that. I'll come back to you. I'll come back to you. Did this other woman adore you? BRIAN: I felt that she did by the look in her eye, it seemed--you know, it made me feel really good. And she goes, `Wow,' you know, and yeah, it made me feel really special, not necessarily because she was really something special. I was just attracted to how I was feeling. WINFREY: Like someone special. And you maintained it for how long? BRIAN: For 18 years. WINFREY: Eighteen years. BRIAN: Right. WINFREY: Eighteen years before you had an affair. BRIAN: That's right. And so it was against all my conduct, my moral code that I had set for myself, and had you asked me two months before I met this person would I ever do that, I'd say there's no way. I'd recognize that, and I'd be able to stay away from that. WINFREY: You could handle the temptation. BRIAN: I'd be able to recognize the temptation for what it was. WINFREY: Have you been tempted before? BRIAN: No. WINFREY: Next, what these men have never revealed to their wives. Coming up, when they were having sex with their mistresses, do they come home and sleep with their wives? We want to know. Plus, a new book claims that all cheating husbands follow the same script. Do they? [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: This is a show for any woman who thinks that their husband could cheat or has cheated. In a provocative new book called "The Script," the authors claim that there is a blueprint that most men follow when they cheat. Stephen, why don't you read it? STEPHEN: OK. WINFREY: OK, go ahead. STEPHEN: (Reading) `Men who cheat follow a script. It's the same word and actions every time among rich and poor, big city and small town, and most all ethnic groups among the young, old and middle-aged, with men from all kinds of backgrounds. It's exactly the same story. Unfaithful men all act alike just like they were following a script. Every woman who experiences an unfaithful husband feels confused and baffled by his contradictory statement and behavior. She starts to believe that she really must be crazy, unappealing, selfish and unloving, just as her husband says. It's all a part of the script.' WINFREY: All a part of the script. Do you think there is a script? TERENCE: In a sense, that's true all the way, I mean, I think for every man... WINFREY: Really? TERENCE: Yeah--who's done it. Yeah. WINFREY: Were you having sex with your wife while you were... BRIAN: Oh, yeah. WINFREY: ...cheating with this woman? BRIAN: Yeah. WINFREY: You were? BRIAN: Yeah. Our sex... WINFREY: Was everybody? Unidentified Panelist: Yes. BRIAN: The sex life was great with my wife, so... Unidentified Panelist: Yeah. BRIAN: So it wasn't about that. CHRIS: Yeah. It wasn't a matter of that. The wife never "neglected her wifely duties"--well, not for me. RYANT: Yeah. That's what I can say. My wife never once during the entire time we were married rejected me for sex. I didn't feel that--as if she initiated enough, and it was my ego. WINFREY: Well, I thought what you said, Brian, was really key in that she wasn't anybody special, that it's not the bombshell. That's what women don't understand. They go, `She didn't even look good,' and `I'm cuter than she is.' BRIAN: Yeah. WINFREY: Or whatever. So Stephen, help me understand what it's like. You're about to kiss another woman for the first time, right? You've been married a year. Is your heart pounding? Are you nervous? What's going through your head? STEPHEN: The flirtation thing had been brewing for three, four months, so it was just... WINFREY: You knew it was coming. STEPHEN: So it was just budding. It was just a matter of, you know, when is it actually going to open up? So... WINFREY: Yeah, yeah. STEPHEN: When we actually kissed, it almost seemed OK, and it didn't seem like something that was unnatural, but after we did it, we were like, `That was wrong.' But it seemed to satisfy a need, so it seemed right.
WINFREY: Uh-huh. So how long did the cheating go on after that first kiss? STEPHEN: Anywhere between six to nine months. WINFREY: Six to nine months. And you got caught. STEPHEN: Yeah. Well, I confessed. WINFREY: Did you lie at first? WINFREY: Uh-huh. So how long did the cheating go on after that first kiss? STEPHEN: Anywhere between six to nine months. WINFREY: Six to nine months. And you got caught. STEPHEN: Yeah. Well, I confessed. WINFREY: Did you lie at first? STEPHEN: Yes. I think we all can admit here that in some ways, in some manner, we all lied to, you know, skirt around the truth in any way. WINFREY: Doesn't it all become a big lie? TERENCE: One big lie. Unidentified Panelist: Yeah. WINFREY: I was thinking, doesn't it all become a big lie? TERENCE: You manipulate--most liars are manipulators. They--the whole thing is just one big lie. You're living a lie. WINFREY: Yeah. Unidentified Panelist: Yeah. WINFREY: But isn't it, Terence? TERENCE: Yeah. WINFREY: Yeah. STEPHEN: But in my case, I confessed because the other woman would have made contact with my wife eventually. WINFREY: OK. STEPHEN: She had basically given me an ultimatum just because the feelings had grown that strong. WINFREY: Uh-huh. STEPHEN: And it's odd and it's unfor... WINFREY: And that was scary to you? STEPHEN: That was--oh, that was... WINFREY: Because you... STEPHEN: Yeah, because I wasn't ready to address the--our relationship. I'm saying my relationship with this other woman, on that level yet. I cheated because there was a need to be fulfilled, and I needed a feeling fulfilled, but also I was looking for... WINFREY: Not necessarily a sexual feeling. STEPHEN: No, not even a sexual feeling. WINFREY: Not even... STEPHEN: But I'm looking for confirmation. Am I with the right woman? WINFREY: Yeah. STEPHEN: And you know--and I'm asking myself how can I be with my wife when this girl's available? WINFREY: Yeah. STEPHEN: Because she's everything. She's that friend. She knows the basketball games. WINFREY: Yeah. STEPHEN: She's got a joke in her pocket. Just--and she's cool like that. WINFREY: Was your wife doing that with you in the beginning? STEPHEN: Oh, yeah. WINFREY: Before you married her. STEPHEN: Yeah. And then we ki... TERENCE: But see, life takes its course. STEPHEN: But life takes it's course, but... TERENCE: It's what happens. You meet. You go through the, `Hey, you're cute,' whatever, you know what I mean? Then you've got to work, you've got to pay bills, you've got kids, you have to pick them up from the day care. That new girlfriend don't have to do that. She ain't got to do nothing but when you come over, she got on her lingerie, she got on whatever you want her to have. She's cooking your favorite meal, she's playing your sports. Whatever she say--whatever you say you like, believe me, when you get there, she's going to be ready for you. RYANT: You know what? There is a difference between getting attached and having a relationship with a woman, over just having sex. My wife actually gets more upset about the relationship... WINFREY: Yeah. RYANT: ...not the sex. It is a big difference, because, you know, you--I've been in tons... TERENCE: That emotional attachment. RYANT: ...of locker rooms and, you know, where guys just talk. It's just candid talk. And what I found is I'm not that bad, because everybody's like that. That's just how they talk. I mean... BRIAN: They're all lying, anyway. RYANT: Well, no, but... BRIAN: I've been in the same locker rooms. RYANT: ...you know what's going through their mind. WINFREY: You justify that to yourself that way. BRIAN: Right. Right. RYANT: You know what's going through your mind. And basically, guys just lust. They want sex. So they'll do it. You just--when you're married, you just can't put yourself in that situation. You know, I had a co-worker, he's a funny guy, and he told me, `Man, it's not even worth it. The only way that I would have sex with a woman now is if the woman came to my door buck naked, stuck it in the door, took--you know, uh, uh, uh, uh.' TERENCE: Well, my brother... WINFREY: Is that what men say when they're alone? (All talk at once) WINFREY: Mike, yours is over the phone, right? You're... MIKE: Right. WINFREY: You're calling up women. MIKE: Right. MIKE: I've spent $250 a month, $300 a month on that phone. I didn't feel like I was getting what I needed at home. I've got a higher sex drive than she does. WINFREY: Mike and Candy have been together for seven years. Mike has had three affairs during that time, and Candy just found out that he's also been having phone sex during their entire relationship. MIKE: There's no emotional ties. It's just small talk, sometimes it's fantasies. It's imagining what they look like and what I can do for them sexually and what they can do for me sexually. WINFREY: Wouldn't it be great if we could get some of those women you've been calling so you could see what they really look like? RYANT: Wow. MIKE: Well, that's the thing about it, you know. WINFREY: That might change your mind. MIKE: Your fantasies... WINFREY: That might change your mind about who you're really talking to and where they are. MIKE: Your fantasies can go anywhere you want them to go.
A lot of guys may not consider that being unfaithful. WINFREY: You also had affairs, too. MIKE: Yeah, I had three affairs. I was going to somebody for something A lot of guys may not consider that being unfaithful. WINFREY: You also had affairs, too. MIKE: Yeah, I had three affairs. I was going to somebody for something that she should have been providing for me. WINFREY: That you couldn't get from your... MIKE: Right. WINFREY: ...spouse. How would you be when you would go home? Can each of you tell me that? You've had the affair, you've been sleeping with somebody else, you walk into your house. Do you--do you remove the scent of the other woman? Do you... BRIAN: Try to get rid of the guilt on the drive home. WINFREY: You try to get rid of the guilt. Do you shower? TERENCE: Well, you try not to change your pattern. That's one of... Unidentified Panelist: Yeah, right. Unidentified Panelist: Yeah. TERENCE: Yeah. WINFREY: Try not to change... TERENCE: No, there's a pattern, you know what I mean? You're not used to coming home and taking a shower and all of a sudden, next thing you know you're take--you don't change your pattern. Women pick up on these things. MIKE: You act as natural as you possibly can. WINFREY: OK. TERENCE: Yeah, women pick up on... WINFREY: So you want to be as natural as you possibly can. RYANT: Right. WINFREY: Yeah. RYANT: You tell the woman not to wear any smells, any perf... WINFREY: You tell the other woman not to wear any perfume. TERENCE: You know, it's funny you say that, because you tell more truth to the mistress than you're telling your wife. WINFREY: Yeah. TERENCE: Yeah. WINFREY: What do you tell the mistress about your wife? TERENCE: You try not to s--you try to leave that alone? STEPHEN: Yeah. I never elaborate--I mean... TERENCE: I've done--I've said some things I shouldn't have said. WINFREY: Like talking about your wife? TERENCE: Right. WINFREY: Yeah. Chris, did you tell your mistress that you loved her? CHRIS: Yes. WINFREY: Yeah. You did. OK. You're very emotional about this still. Why? CHRIS: Yeah. Just the conversation. I dissed my wife. WINFREY: Your wife of 18 years, right? Yeah. Is it true that you met her at Cub Scouts? CHRIS: Yeah. WINFREY: Was it that look in the eye, I like you and you like me and I kind of know it? CHRIS: Yeah. WINFREY: And then how did it progress? CHRIS: Through e-mail. WINFREY: Were you saying things on e-mail that you probably wouldn't have had the courage to say to her face or not? CHRIS: Right. WINFREY: So was it mostly sexual, or did you love her? CHRIS: I loved her. WINFREY: You loved her. And the tears are because you still love her, you miss her, you what? CHRIS: No, it's because of the pain to my wife and my kids. WINFREY: How do you feel about yourself? CHRIS: I make no bones about what I did. I--but I've got a great woman behind me, and we're going to get through it. WINFREY: Our conversation continues in a moment. Next, which one of these men brought his mistress to his family's home to have sex? Plus, meet the wives watching backstage. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: This is like really no other conversation I can remember having. These seven men are all admitted cheaters. They're husbands who betrayed their wives, and today they've agreed to answer frank questions about why they have done it. Did all of you--when first confronted, did you all deny it? Panelists: (In unison) Yeah. RYANT: I would get an attitude. I would--it was almost to the fact, `How dare you? You don't know for sure. How dare you confront me? How dare you snoop?' TERENCE: How dare you catch me? Unidentified Panelist: What are you doing? RYANT: Yeah. You know, and I was... WINFREY: How dare you catch me. TERENCE: ...(Unintelligible) you! RYANT: And I was so, you know, out of pocket with that, if you just look back on it, to my wife. She was just trying--she just wanted to know, and I would really convince myself that, `You're against me' or `You must be looking for something. You must don't want to be married.' So I would be on my... WINFREY: And how would you feel afterwards? RYANT: I would feel a little guilty, like... WINFREY: A little guilty. RYANT: ...`Wow, I can't believe I'm so ...(unintelligible). WINFREY: A little guilty. How did you feel? You confessed after you--the other woman was going to tell her. STEPHEN: Right. Right. We were sitting on the bed, and I said, `I've got to tell you something, and you may not be ready for this.' And for the sake of confessing and getting it all out in the open and trying to move forward, and beating this other woman to the punch and not letting her... WINFREY: That's really why you were doing it. STEPHEN: Yeah. Oh, yeah. WINFREY: OK. Had you broken up with the other woman? STEPHEN: Not entirely, no. I have an emotional attachment to this young lady, and I'm not the type of person that just--you're off, you're done. We're--you're... WINFREY: Did she know you were going to tell your wife? STEPHEN: Mm-hmm. WINFREY: She knew you were going to tell your wife. STEPHEN: But it was--she was so excited about ruining this thing, ruin...
WINFREY: She knew you were going to tell your wife, so she thought you telling your wife would mean, `Now we can be together.' STEPHEN: Now we can be together. WINFREY: OK. You then tell your wife, and what was her reaction? STEPHEN: I've never known that I could hurt WINFREY: She knew you were going to tell your wife, so she thought you telling your wife would mean, `Now we can be together.' STEPHEN: Now we can be together. WINFREY: OK. You then tell your wife, and what was her reaction? STEPHEN: I've never known that I could hurt someone that much and in less than a minute. To this day still, I remember that evening so clearly. I just--I never knew I could hurt someone that much. And it pained me, because I'm looking--I'm like, `Wow, you love me that much?' I didn't see it. I didn't... TERENCE: You go through this thought process when you tell them that you cheated, that `When? Where?' You know, `How?' It becomes all those questions. But you came home one time, and then once it gets to the intimate part, `Did you do certain things to her that you did to me?' STEPHEN: They want all the details, right. CHRIS: When we were almost found out... WINFREY: Let's just clarify. This was a woman who was a den mother with the Cub Scouts? CHRIS: Yeah. WINFREY: OK. And... CHRIS: And she decided we got to stop this. WINFREY: And she decided. CHRIS: Yeah. WINFREY: But you all had had sex, and you'd... CHRIS: Yes, ma'am. WINFREY: ...been intimate. CHRIS: And--well, it was... WINFREY: In her home? CHRIS: Well, in the family room there or my family room or... WINFREY: Ay-yi-yi. CHRIS: ...in the van next to the police station. WINFREY: You had sex in your own home. CHRIS: Yeah. WINFREY: You brought her into your own home. CHRIS: It wasn't the bed. WINFREY: It wasn't the bed. CHRIS: No. WINFREY: But it's in your house. It's in your family room, right? CHRIS: OK, yeah. WINFREY: OK. And I'm just asking, is that a way of really dissing your wife, or is it just convenient? CHRIS: Yeah. It was just convenient. I... WINFREY: Really? CHRIS: It wasn't anything--any thought behind it. WINFREY: I just feel that that's the ultimate in disrespect, to bring somebody into my house, and now... STEPHEN: I haven't done it, but it's--you know, part of cheating is just reckless. TERENCE: To show you how men think. That's the ...(unintelligible) WINFREY: You didn't think about it at all, right, Chris? You didn't even think about it. CHRIS: No. WINFREY: Well, how do you even get her to your house? You have kids. CHRIS: Everybody's at school. WINFREY: Everybody's at school. Your wife's away. OK. When you said to your wife, `We did it right here in this house...' CHRIS: That was not good. WINFREY: It was not good. CHRIS: No. BRIAN: My wife was devastated. WINFREY: This is what's so interesting to me. And you guys say this like--I mean, and I--`God, over the years, I feel the heartache of every woman I've ever talked to.' BRIAN: Yeah. WINFREY: Not--devastated, can't get out of bed, can't move. BRIAN: Yeah. My wife went through all that, and I seen that. She didn't sleep for like three days and eat for like--and I... WINFREY: And you--when you're doing it, you don't even know that you have the possibility of causing it. BRIAN: I didn't realize that that was going to happen. WINFREY: Do you believe most men cheat? TERENCE: Yes. STEPHEN: Yep. BRIAN: Statistically, you're probably... Unidentified Panelist: Yeah. BRIAN: Yeah, most of them. TERENCE: About 99.99. CHRIS: The ones that say they don't are lying. WINFREY: Let me ask this. The--several of you have indicated that your wives were not doing what you felt they needed to be doing, making you feel special, making you feel adored. You said the other person made you feel adored. Not having enough time for you. Were you doing the same for them? Were you marking her feel special? Were you making her feel adored? RYANT: No. STEPHEN: No. WINFREY: Could she have said the same thing about you? RYANT: Yeah. Yeah, because my wife, she--she would tell me that if I came home and washed the dishes, bathed the kids, then maybe that would get--put her in the mood, you know what I mean? So just letting her know that I'm helping her, I'm with her. I didn't do that. WINFREY: You did not. RYANT: You know? Yeah. So I didn't do that at all. So, I mean, I have some blame, you know. WINFREY: You were as neglectful of her as you say she was of you. RYANT: Yes. WINFREY: Coming up, the betrayed wives have been listening to this candid conversation backstage. I'll return to the studio to talk to them about what they just heard. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: So we're back in the studio. Wasn't that interesting? Didn't I tell you? Audience Member: Yeah. WINFREY: Very interesting. We just heard a roomful of cheating husbands speak very candidly, and while you've been watching this conversation, explicit conversation, so have their wives. So Natalie is Stephen's wife of nine years. Danine is married to Ryant. Anne is married to Brian. Mary's husband is Chris, and Amy is married to John. And Candy has been with Mike now for seven years, and Terence, whose wife stayed home. First of all, hearing your husbands speak so candidly made you think what? Natalie? NATALIE: That was the first time I ever heard him express the emotion about how hard that was for him. WINFREY: Really? NATALIE: Yeah. I had never heard him verbalize that, no. WINFREY: And was that one of the hardest days for you ever? NATALIE: Oh, by far. WINFREY: Now, Danine, Ryant told us how smart you are and that he thought at one point that you were two steps ahead of him all the time. Did you feel like you were playing detective with him? DANINE: Yes, I did. Yes. WINFREY: And I said to him, `That's no way to live.' DANINE: I actually work as an investigator. WINFREY: Ah! DANINE: So I don't miss much.
WINFREY: Yeah. DANINE: I don't miss a step. WINFREY: And his cheating turned you into a crazy person, I heard you said. DANINE: I felt like I was running around in circles and I felt like I was losing my mind. WINFREY: You actually caught him in an apartment, WINFREY: Yeah. DANINE: I don't miss a step. WINFREY: And his cheating turned you into a crazy person, I heard you said. DANINE: I felt like I was running around in circles and I felt like I was losing my mind. WINFREY: You actually caught him in an apartment, did you not, cheating? DANINE: Yes. WINFREY: Yeah. DANINE: Right after.... WINFREY: You walked in... DANINE: Right after we got married. WINFREY: Yeah, you did. DANINE: It's awful, because you get obsessed with looking and digging and searching, and then once you're right, it just motivates you to keep looking and keep digging and keep searching, and there's no end to it. WINFREY: Uh-huh. Now, Amy, how are you today, because it just--you just found out when? AMY: I--it's one of those days I'll have in my head, like my kids' birthdays, January 13th. WINFREY: This year. AMY: Yeah. WINFREY: But what you found out was about an affair that had happened... AMY: Five years ago. WINFREY: Why is this affair that happened five years ago... AMY: Worse than the other two. WINFREY: ...so devastating to you? AMY: This one was a lot more involved. When I first found out, he in a way tried to make me feel bad. He said, `Oh, it was nothing.' I read the e- mails after I found them. He was upstairs with the kids. I stormed out of the house, went for a walk, came back, and when I came back, he said, `I know why you're upset, and it's nothing, it's no big deal,' that kind of speech. And I said, `You've got to be kidding me.' I was like, `You don't e... WINFREY: OK. Let me stop you there. He has said to us that he had no sex with any of these people. AMY: He says he didn't, but I'm not sure if I'm still willing to believe that, because I've read the e-mails, and the e-mails obvi... WINFREY: The e-mails indicate sex happened? AMY: They indicated that something physical happened. WINFREY: OK, John. AMY: Whether it was touching or something else, I--he--whenever I ask him, it's the `I don't remember' card. It's the... WINFREY: John's crying. John, why are you crying? JOHN: It's--it's only been since I've been coming to terms with all this that I'm realizing how much I really love my wife and how much I want to... WINFREY: I'm going to tell you--let me tell you something to save yourself a little bit here. You've got to tell the truth. You've got to tell the truth. You know what? All of these tears don't mean a damn thing. They don't mean anything at all. It means nothing. It means absolutely nothing. And you know what? You--I don't want you telling me and this audience. You need to go home and strip yourself clean with the truth to her, because you only deserve to be forgiven when you can acknowledge what you have done. And you are still playing with her and playing with yourself and playing with the relationship and playing with your children because you're not willing to strip yourself clean. And the healing can't start until you start with the truth. Am I not right here? Audience Member: Yeah. WINFREY: That is the truth. So I don't want you telling us anything you haven't already shared with her, because that should be your private business. And she should not have to hear whatever it is in front of all of us. But that would be the victory for you, and the reason for this whole, you know, TV thing, if you would have the courage to do that, to step up and be a real man, be a real man and tell her the truth, and then let whatever happens happen. We'll be right back. Next, how Mary reacted when she heard Chris brought his mistress into her home. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: Earlier I had one of the most interesting conversations I can recall, in 18 years of doing shows, with seven men who admitted candidly how they all cheated on their wives. Their wives then were watching this tape from the green room and heard their husbands' comments. You know, Mary, I was feeling for you because the person he was having the affair with was brought into the home. MARY: Correct. WINFREY: That, to me, is just--that kind of is searing to me. Audience Member: Yeah. Right. WINFREY: That's searing. So, Chris, when you told Mary that we were here and we were in this house, how--what... MARY: Well, a lot of things were brought up, and I was a raving maniac. WINFREY: Yeah. When you saw your husband, your husband was very emotional. MARY: Correct. WINFREY: And that made you feel what? MARY: That, you know, he still cares. He still cares. He loves me. I love him, and we're going to work it out. WINFREY: Work it out. Great. Yeah. Now, Anne, did you confront the other woman? ANNE: Yes, I did. WINFREY: Yeah? ANNE: Yeah. It was really quite the experience, because when I first found out, I was completely shocked. I felt I had been living the Cinderella life, and in one moment my marriage was over ...(unintelligible). WINFREY: Because you didn't sense anything. ANNE: I had no idea. I sensed nothing at all. WINFREY: He came to you and told you. ANNE: Yeah. It was a complete shock. And actually, it was like I was losing my sanity in that moment. WINFREY: That's part of the script. ANNE: And I remember even thinking about killing her and then kind of coming to and going, `Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I'm even capable of having a thought like that,' and immediately bringing it into check and actually having to work through and think about forgiving. And then I thought it can't remain a mystery to me for the rest of my life what this woman is like, but I wanted to see what she--what was this woman like that could come in after 18 years of marriage and steal the affections of my husband? And I was really quite amazed in that meeting with her. I mean, among other things, I was kind of like, `Her?' I was expecting a sex goddess, you know, and she wasn't what I had envisioned. So it was good for me to see that, and... WINFREY: Yeah, actually--may I just stop here? I think that was one of the best points made of our conversation with the men, because everybody thinks it's going to be a sex goddess or it's somebody who's going to, you know, look better than me and... TERENCE: It's funny she'd say that, because she keeps saying `Her, her.' WINFREY: Yeah. TERENCE: `Her, her.' WINFREY: Yeah. TERENCE: She didn't mention one time him. WINFREY: Yeah. TERENCE: You know? And this is what a lot of women do who are married to men such as--like what we've done, not that we're not bad men, we just did a bad thing. They blame the woman more than they blame the man. WINFREY: Yeah. TERENCE: We manipulate the situation for her to blame the woman. WINFREY: Yeah, I think Terence's point is very well taken. It's your husband out cheating, and you didn't go for him. ANNE: Yeah. You know what? I've thought about that a lot, and I'm far enough now to know the reason why is because I loved my husband. DANINE: Exactly. ANNE: So it was easy to direct all my anger and all my pain towards a stranger and an enemy that I didn't know, because I couldn't make the mental transition of seeing the man that I loved and adored as my enemy in a second just like that. WINFREY: Wow, that's really brilliant. We'll be right back. Next, which one of these women learned something unexpected about her husband today? [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: Candy, did anything Mike say reveal anything to you in that interview? How did you feel watching him? CANDY: He wasn't totally honest. WINFREY: He wasn't honest. CANDY: Mm-mm. And it's disheartening. WINFREY: And do you... CANDY: It's disheartening... WINFREY: It's disheartening. CANDY: ...to see. Yeah. I saw... WINFREY: Do you agree with what I was saying earlier, that until you're honest, there's nothing? CANDY: Oh, I totally agree, and I've told him that. WINFREY: Yeah. So what are you going to do? CANDY: I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do. There's been second and third and fourth, and how many times can one person find it within themselves to forgive? WINFREY: Yeah. MIKE: My response to that is, if I've already destroyed the trust and the faith that she had in me in the beginning, anything that I say nowadays just doesn't--it doesn't hold any water. CANDY: They're words. MIKE: There's nothing. CANDY: They're words. MIKE: And what is there to... WINFREY: Would you say--would you agree with me--I don't know whether you agree or don't agree, but have you come clean, have you stripped yourself naked, down to the... MIKE: I've been--I've told her everything that ever happened. WINFREY: You told her everything. CANDY: I just recently found out... WINFREY: Something el... CANDY: ...Saturday. WINFREY: Something else? CANDY: That it's continued, yes. WINFREY: OK. CANDY: So... WINFREY: OK. Well, this is going to be one hell of an after-show. I can't wait. OK. We will be right back. Be right back. [MUSIC] WINFREY: So if you're interested in this topic, and I know a lot of women are, there's a few new books out there. "The Script" is out there. Danine wrote a book called "Ultimate Betrayal: How to Spot a Cheating Mate and What You Can Do About It." And Anne has a book. It's called "My Husband's Affair Became the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me." That's hard to believe, but OK. I believe you. I believe you. Thanks, everybody. Go to oprah.com to find out more about it. [MUSIC] [APPLAUSE]