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The Makings of Jeffrey Dahmer | The Oprah Winfrey Show | Oprah Winfrey Network

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OPRAH WINFREY: I'm holding in my hand a photo of a little boy who... WINFREY: ...may not look too different from your own child. But somewhere deep inside this innocent little toddler was the makings of a sadistic monster just waiting to come out. How could this little boy ever grow up to commit these humanly unimaginable and heinous crimes? WINFREY: He savagely raped and murdered at least 17 boys and men. He would then lure them into his home, drug and strangle them, then have sex with their dead corpses. Afterward, he would slowly and methodically skin and dismember their body parts. And finally, would perform cannibalism on their mutilated flesh. When we hear about such grizzly crimes like this, a lot of us ask ourselves, `Who were his parents?' I know I did. `How was he raised? What happened to the child?' This is the father of the young man who committed those crimes. He's the father of Jeffrey Dahmer, Lionel Dahmer. Today, we're talking with parents who all somehow, some way, raised violent sex offenders, child molesters, rapists. And we're asking: What goes wrong from the time a child is born to the time they're savagely raping or molesting somebody else's child? That's what we're here to try and figure out today so that other parents can stop this from happening to your own children; so that you might notice the signs and be able to do something before it's too late. Did you notice the signs, Mr. Dahmer? Mr. LIONEL DAHMER: No. The only signs that I saw were shyness and reluctancy to engage in social interactions. That sort of thing. But no re--really, no overt signs of any kind. WINFREY: One of the things you wrote in your-- the book called "A Father's Story" when you're trying to account for how this happened-- how this happened to your son and to your family-- one of the things that you say, though, is that, `The same sense of something dark and shadowy, of a malicious force growing in my son now colors almost...' WINFREY: `...every memory--memory I have of his childhood. In a sense, his childhood no longer exists.' Mr. L. DAHMER: Right. WINFREY: So when you look back at the little things--things that you thought were little things at the time, somehow seem to foreshadow this monster that-- that was created over the years. Mr. L. DAHMER: Yeah. It's sort of a retrospect sort of thinking now. When I look back on things like the time I was at Iowa State University in university housing, and I went underneath the house to clear out of trash and debris, I... WINFREY: And he was four years old at the time? Mr. L. DAHMER: He was about four years old. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: Yeah. And... WINFREY: Because you smelled something under the house? Mr. L. DAHMER: Yeah, civet cats. It's a member of the skunk family. And I wanted to go underneath and fix it up so they wouldn't get in again. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And I found cans and bottles, and bones of mammals that the civet cats--the skunks had eaten. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And so I cleared all of this debris up, including the bones and put it into a--a metal pail. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And Jeff was there and my former wife was there, and it was just an ordinary operation at the time. Just a cleanup operation. WINFREY: So you had gone under the house and you found that these little skunklike creatures had eaten a lot of the rodents... Mr. L. DAHMER: Yeah. And left bones. WINFREY: And left the bones. Mr. L. DAHMER: Mm-hmm. WINFREY: So you pulled the bones out from under the house and your wife, at the time, and Jeffrey Dahmer, four years old, they're standing out. And--and he started to go through the pail of bones. He was just four years old. Mr. L. DAHMER: Right. WINFREY: Correct? Mr. L. DAHMER: We were discussing, my former wife and I, what--what I was doing. And I looked down and I saw Jeff... WINFREY: Playing with the bones? Mr. L. DAHMER: ...picking up the bones and dropping them back into the pail. And that was really the only time that I saw any... WINFREY: Did he seem fascinated? Mr. L. DAHMER: He didn't really seem overly fascinated, just sort of amused that they sort of dropped down and clanked and, you know, made a cli--a clinging--a clanking noise. WINFREY: He called them fiddlesticks. Mr. L. DAHMER: And he said--well, sort of like fiddlesticks. You know, these old dr--pickup sticks that you used to play as a kid. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And that was his name for-- for fiddle--for pickup sticks. And he just seemed amused. And I wouldn't say overly... WINFREY: Fascinated? Mr. L. DAHMER: ...fascinated or ta--taken with it. WINFREY: Intrigued? Mr. L. DAHMER: But--yeah. But in retrospect, looking back now, like you say, everything is sort of colored with memories like that. The time... WINFREY: Are there other memories? Mr. L. DAHMER: The time that he had a double hernia operation when he, you know, wondered whether he had had his penis cut off when he actually just had a double hernia operation. WINFREY: How old was he then? Mr. L. DAHMER: He was concerned about that. About the same age range--about four years old. WINFREY: He was sick a lot, was he not? Mr. L. DAHMER: He was very sick with eye and--excuse me, ear...

WINFREY: Ear. Mr. L. DAHMER: ...and nose infections. And he would get injections at the local hospital. And... WINFREY: So when you looked back to times where I think in the same age range, because we now know your personality WINFREY: Ear. Mr. L. DAHMER: ...and nose infections. And he would get injections at the local hospital. And... WINFREY: So when you looked back to times where I think in the same age range, because we now know your personality is formed by the time you're six years old, so whatever's there is there. Mr. L. DAHMER: Generally, yeah. WINFREY: You show me a boy at six, we'll show you a man at 36... Mr. L. DAHMER: Mm-hmm. WINFREY: ...some people have said. So the time he was walking through the house and asked you or your wife... WINFREY: ...`What would happen if my naval was cut out?' Mr. L. DAHMER: I recorded--I had a habit of recording him as a child. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: Just, you know, the old type reel tape. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: Just miles and miles of it. And I had that transcribed about a year and a half ago to-- to regular cassette tape. And I came across this one portion where he asked me, `Dad, what would happen' --we were just engaged in conversation about his body. He said, `What would happen if--if--if we cut out my navel?' And I--I can remember just passing it off at the time, and it was maybe just an innocent question. WINFREY: As one of those thing kids say. Mr. L. DAHMER: But now, looking back--yeah, it's one of those things that kids say out of interest. WINFREY: You say in your book, Lionel, you say, `I've come to believe that some of the compulsions that overwhelmed my son may have had their origins in me.' WINFREY: That must be a frightening realization. Mr. L. DAHMER: It was one of the items that I wanted to investigate. Being a scientist, I want to throw out everything for investigation. WINFREY: You're a scientist and chemist? Mr. L. DAHMER: Yes. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: Right. And there are a number of things. Could it--I mean, did he turn out-- most people want to know why this happened. WINFREY: Yeah. Mr. L. DAHMER: Number one... WINFREY: Immediately, we all thought when we heard these heinous, horrible stories, we thought, `Who abused him?' Did you abuse him? Was he abused? Was he sexually molested? Was he beaten as a child? Mr. L. DAHMER: Those were the first thoughts that came to your mind probably. WINFREY: Yeah. Mr. L. DAHMER: I considered all kinds of things. Was it environmental; genetic? Was it, perhaps, medications that were taken at the time of--you know, in the first trimester? Was it the effect of, you know, the popular subject now, media violence? WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And was it--was it genetic? These are all things to consider, you know. WINFREY: Was he molested? Mr. L. DAHMER: No, he wasn't molested. WINFREY: Was he physically abused in the home? Mr. L. DAHMER: No, he was not physically abused, no. WINFREY: So when you analyze-- and you have a very analytical mind, that's what you do for a living. Mr. L. DAHMER: Yes, that's my training. WINFREY: When you go back and the-- yes, when you go back and you-- the reason you say you've written the story is to try to put-- make some sense of it. Mr. L. DAHMER: Right. WINFREY: As you analyze and go back over the years trying to figure out how this could have happened, what have you concluded? Mr. L. DAHMER: I've concluded that there are many more questions. I've-- I've answered some of the questions in my own mind, but very few. WINFREY: Like what? Like what? Mr. L. DAHMER: There's more que-- there's more questions that have been raised than have been answered. Well, I--I really do feel-- I don't have really a lot of scientific evidence for this, but I feel--and this is a message that I wanted to convey to--to parents--that I feel that if a youngster, especially a male youngster, comes through his puberty and keeps everything in, bottles everything up inside himself... Mr. L. DAHMER: ...without talking to peers or family or friends, anyone at all about their fears and angers and frustrations-- I feel very strongly that it's possible that--that they're-- all of those fears and anger... WINFREY: Are signs of trouble? Mr. L. DAHMER: ...can get mixed up... WINFREY: Yeah. Mr. L. DAHMER: ...with the sexual awakening such that they don't even understand what's going on. WINFREY: What's going on. What's interesting, though, about Jeffrey Dahmer, your son, is that not--these signs, ac--according to what you've written here, didn't show up after, you know, or during puberty. You--as you record, his first-grade teacher noticed or had said... WINFREY: ...to you when you went to the school to talk to her, that he was a distant child, he didn't associate with the other children, that she had seen him on the playground pacing back and forth. Mr. L. DAHMER: Just doing nothing. WINFREY: Doing absolutely nothing. He was not communicative, he didn't wish to associate with the other children, performed his tasks but did them with absolutely no interest.

Mr. L. DAHMER: Right. WINFREY: I'm sure that there are a lot of parents who are listening who say, `Well, that could be my child.' So does that mean your child can turn out to be Jeffrey Dahmer? Mr. L. DAHMER: There's millions of people who are shy. I was deathly shy and feeling inferior. Mr. L. DAHMER: Right. WINFREY: I'm sure that there are a lot of parents who are listening who say, `Well, that could be my child.' So does that mean your child can turn out to be Jeffrey Dahmer? Mr. L. DAHMER: There's millions of people who are shy. I was deathly shy and feeling inferior. WINFREY: And so you--you felt that some of the signs that he had--well, you experienced that, too? You were shy? Mr. L. DAHMER: I was--I was empathetic. Right. WINFREY: Yes. Mr. L. DAHMER: And I gave variance to that to some degree, you know. I felt that I understood that. WINFREY: Yeah. Because he was just a shy kid? Mr. L. DAHMER: Right. WINFREY: He was more than shy. He was fear stricken? Mr. L. DAHMER: There was something... Mr. L. DAHMER: There was something developing in his-- in his mind that was so bizarre that we-- we just cannot imagine. Now the difference there, I think, is that he did not have any reality contact checks, you know, with people. You know, I think that it's really incumbent upon parents to check to see if their kids are talking to anyone about their fears. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. You open this book saying, `If the police had told me that my son was dead, I would have thought differently about him. If they told me that a strange man had lured him to a seedy apartment and a few minutes later drugged, strangled and sexually assaulted and mutilated his dead body, if they told me the same horrible things that they told so many other fathers and mothers in July of 1991, then I would have done what they have done. I would have mourned my son and demanded that the man who killed them be profoundly punished. But I wasn't told what these other mothers and fathers were told, that their sons were dead at the hands of a murderer. Instead, I was told that my son was the one who had murdered their sons.' I want to, when we come back... WINFREY: ...to go back to the day when you had-- you had to be told that your son had done these horrible things. WINFREY: I'm talking with Lionel Dahmer. Lionel Dahmer is the father of Jeffrey Dahmer, who has taken his own dark journey into trying to understand why his son became the monster that he did. And he writes of this in his book. WINFREY: It's called, "A Father's Story." A lot of people would say, Mr. Dahmer, you're trying to capitalize on the crimes of your son. Mr. L. DAHMER: Well, money is not my prime mover at all. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: My main mover is to find out what went wrong and to help people. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And there's... WINFREY: Could you have done that without writing a book, though, do you think? Mr. L. DAHMER: I don't know. I've had so much interaction with people as a result of writing the book... WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: ...so much feedback that I don't think I would have had if I would have just gone out on my own and tried to-- and I might not have investigated... WINFREY: Yeah. Mr. L. DAHMER: ...so fervently in... WINFREY: Yourself. Mr. L. DAHMER: ...indepth, myself. WINFREY: Yeah. Let me ask you, do you think there are other Jeffrey Dahmers being bred out there? Mr. L. DAHMER: Mm-hmm. Yes, I do. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: I think that there's always a-- a great--our family was pretty much ordinary. I mean, we--I participated with Jeff in all kinds of activities. There's nothing, really, greatly out of the ordinary. Mr. L. DAHMER: Yet something was connecting in his sexuality and his--his developing youth that-- that you and I just can't even relate to. And I think that there are many more out there. We have gotten letters, as a matter of fact... WINFREY: From people... Mr. L. DAHMER: ...from people who say they have these same urges. WINFREY: You say ordinary. But you were an emotionally distant father, would you say? Mr. L. DAHMER: Well... WINFREY: Like so many fathers, you're raised, you say--even in the book, you say... Mr. L. DAHMER: By distant, I mean that... WINFREY: That, for you, loving was going to work every day... Mr. L. DAHMER: ...that--I, maybe--yeah, providing. WINFREY: ...providing for the family, you know. Mr. L. DAHMER: Right. I--you know, wrestled around and, you know, goofed around with--with my son a lot. Mr. L. DAHMER: But to say that, maybe, you know, I don't know if I was emotionally equipped to handle... WINFREY: Whatever was going on with him. Mr. L. DAHMER: You know, yeah. Right. WINFREY: But you went fishing with him. Mr. L. DAHMER: At the time. WINFREY: Went fishing and did all of the fatherly things? Mr. L. DAHMER: Yes. We did tennis for years. We went tobogganing, sledding, participated in 4-H. We raised lambs together, chickens in 4-H for years. WINFREY: Wasn't he fascinated, then, though, with the innards of animals? Mr. L. DAHMER: You know, he never really demonstrated that to me nor to anyone around.

WINFREY: I thought when you went fishing and the-- you cut open the fish he'd be all... Mr. L. DAHMER: He did not demonstrate at that time. Mr. L. DAHMER: Actually, Oprah, all of this information came out at the trial. WINFREY: I thought when you went fishing and the-- you cut open the fish he'd be all... Mr. L. DAHMER: He did not demonstrate at that time. Mr. L. DAHMER: Actually, Oprah, all of this information came out at the trial. WINFREY: Uh-huh. Mr. L. DAHMER: And at the time we were fishing, he never exhibited any type of... WINFREY: Unusual. Mr. L. DAHMER: ...amazement or-- his eyes didn't widen or say anything. WINFREY: When you were gutting the fish? Mr. L. DAHMER: Right, uh-huh. But at the trial, one of the expert witnesses, Dr. Becker, brought this out with him. And apparently, he was, you know, caught up with the--with the-- the color of the fish. But so in retrospect, maybe it was just an ordinary thing. But now, going back to what we said before, everything is sort of foreshadowed. You think back on it. WINFREY: When--when you were at his home, there was a time when you were at his home, after he move moved to Milwaukee--I know we're skipping at lot. Mr. L. DAHMER: At my mother's home. WINFREY: At your mom's home. And you had gone to look in a box and he had said, `Don't open the box.' Because there was--what? Pornography in there? Mr. L. DAHMER: I had found some pornographic material prior to that, and I thought there was pornographic material. That's what I thought it was. WINFREY: By this time, you think your son's a little off, though, right? Mr. L. DAHMER: Well, I don't know what-- what do you mean by `off?' I mean, I felt that he... WINFREY: Exhibited unusual behavior. Mr. L. DAHMER: Interested in pornography, I guess. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And there are probably a lot of young men that are interested. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: But it didn't occur to me that that was greatly different. He alw--in other words, I've always thought of him as being very, very shy, having feelings of inferiority, and, yes, you know, looking at pornography, perhaps. But it didn't... WINFREY: So when you opened the box... Mr. L. DAHMER: It didn't occur to me to be anything greatly strange. WINFREY: You didn't see that there was anything to be greatly concerned about? Mr. L. DAHMER: Well, I found--my mother had found the box. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: It was unopened; it was locked. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And I asked Jeff to open it. I came to her house, asked her to--asked him to open it. WINFREY: Thinking it was going to be pornography in there. Mr. L. DAHMER: Yeah. Right. WINFREY: And he opened it and what was there? Mr. L. DAHMER: He resisted opening it, OK. WINFREY: Uh-huh. Yeah. Mr. L. DAHMER: I insisted. He got mad. He tore up the birthday check that I gave him that same day. It was his birthday. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. How old was he? Mr. L. DAHMER: And he said--he was--in his 20s, late 20... WINFREY: OK. Mr. L. DAHMER: Middle to late 20s. And he said, `Can't I have just one square foot' --that's about how big the box was--`of privacy?' `Let's just wait until tomorrow morning,' he said. `I'll open it then.' Because my mother was there. And he said, `Let's not create a scene. Let's wait till tomorrow. I'll open it then. I'll show you what's in it. It's what you think.' I still went downstairs after a tool to open it. And he grabbed the box, he said, `Wait, please.' And I--I assented. I just--you know, I felt the feelings of empathy as he was so shy. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And he just felt like he couldn't have any privacy. WINFREY: When you finally opened the box, what... Mr. L. DAHMER: I didn't--I didn't open the box. WINFREY: OK. Mr. L. DAHMER: No. He brought it down the next morning and there, indeed, were--were pornographic materials in there. Which satisfied me. WINFREY: Hmm. Because that's what you thought was there? Mr. L. DAHMER: And--yeah. And frankly, Oprah, I don't know what I would have done if I would have opened the box-- forcibly opened that box and seen what was in there. WINFREY: Because what was in there? Mr. L. DAHMER: A human head. WINFREY: When we come back, I'll ask Lionel what his son, Jeffrey Dahmer, said to him during their first conversation following his arrest. WINFREY: We're talking to Lionel Dahmer. We'll be talking to other parents today who raised sons who ended up committing horrible crimes against society and other people's children. Do you see your son often? Mr. L. DAHMER: On the average, once a month. WINFREY: Once a month. Mr. L. DAHMER: Mm-hmm. Sometimes a little more often. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: Depending upon the need. Mr. L. DAHMER: There's been a lot of legal problems that have come up. And... WINFREY: What does he say to you? What did he say to you after the arrest? Mr. L. DAHMER: Right after the arrest, the first time I saw him... WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: ...he hung his head and was-- looked very disheveled and he said, `I'm so sorry, Dad. I don't know what to say. There's nothing I can say.

I did it again.' So, in other words, he was--it was just another `I'm sorry.' It really wasn't that much more intense I did it again.' So, in other words, he was--it was just another `I'm sorry.' It really wasn't that much more intense than the other times when, you know, he committed less things like lesser crimes. Like drunkenness and so forth. WINFREY: When he was--when he was--he was drunk from the time he was 16 years old, going to school drunk? Mr. L. DAHMER: It was somewhere in the 17--16-, 17-, 18-year range, which was completely hidden from me. WINFREY: Uh-huh. Mr. L. DAHMER: Mm-hmm. WINFREY: He was going to school-- he was an alcoholic by the time he was 16? Mr. L. DAHMER: It appeared to be so. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Going to school drunk every day, trying to cope with all his fears of not being able to socialize and so forth? Mr. L. DAHMER: Yeah. Never came home drunk, never came home in a state that--that-- that--that gave him away. Mr. L. DAHMER: Picked up liquor on the way at a friend's house. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And this happened at school. Drinking at school, apparently. WINFREY: By that time, he was already roaming the neighborhood streets on his bike and collecting animal remains and... Mr. L. DAHMER: Yes. Yeah, age 13, 14. It's just inconceivable. And it's also... WINFREY: How is he--how is a child able to dismember animals and, you know, take the skin off their bones... Mr. L. DAHMER: Well... WINFREY: ...and--I know you're a chemist and he had been around you and, you know, working with you at times. But how was he able to do that without you or your wife or your mother, anybody knowing that's what was going on? Mr. L. DAHMER: Well, we had an acre and three- fourths of heavily wooded property. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And the adjacent properties were easy to hide. Mr. L. DAHMER: And Jeff was very good at hiding. WINFREY: This is your home there? Mr. L. DAHMER: Yes. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And there were so many areas that he could have done it in, and he timed it, apparently, when my former wife and I weren't around. WINFREY: And that's where he killed his first victim, there? Mr. L. DAHMER: Yes. WINFREY: Yeah. Mr. L. DAHMER: Yes. WINFREY: That you knew nothing about. Mr. L. DAHMER: I knew nothing about it at all. It's--it's amazing--if only a neighbor--I mean, I knew--af--after the fact, at the trial, I knew at that point that some of the neighbor kids knew that he was cruising around the neighborhood on a bike looking for, you know, dead animals. That's all that they knew, apparently. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: But if I had known that, that would have been such a big red flag, I would have had him to a psychiatrist in a minute. WINFREY: Do you think so? Mr. L. DAHMER: I would have. WINFREY: In retrospect... Mr. L. DAHMER: Mm-hmm. WINFREY: ...that would have been the flag? But all the other... Mr. L. DAHMER: That would have been... WINFREY: But the other things weren't flags. Mr. L. DAHMER: No, not really. They were always explainable. They were always within the realm of-- of my experience, shyness, inferiority feelings. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: Nothing really exceptionally stood out. WINFREY: So now what does your son say to you? Mr. L. DAHMER: Well, my wife, Sherry, and I visit him. WINFREY: Your second wife? Mr. L. DAHMER: Yes. Routinely. We talk to him every week on the phone. We're very, very close. We've gotten very close since his--since his arrest. WINFREY: Do you still love your son? Mr. L. DAHMER: Much more close. WINFREY: Do you still love your son? Mr. L. DAHMER: I still love my son. I'll always stick by him; I always have. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: And I still love him very, very much. WINFREY: Do you see him as sick? Mr. L. DAHMER: I think he has a very deep psychosis. WINFREY: Yeah. Mr. L. DAHMER: There's--I don't think there's any doubt about that. I think he has something that--that he does not understand. And I would really love--if he were amenable and it would not destroy him mentally--I would like to see him studied. That was one of the reasons--one of the reasons why I wrote the book. WINFREY: Because you'd like to s... Mr. L. DAHMER: To provide funds for research, for treatment of him, to donate to victims' groups, to create new groups and so forth and so on. Sherry and I discussed this extensively. WINFREY: To see him studied? Mr. L. DAHMER: Studied and helped. Right. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Do you think he can be helped? Mr. L. DAHMER: I think if we can get back to the time where these-- this hypothetical mixing of his sexuality with his frustrations and anger, maybe we can get to it. I don't know. WINFREY: Now do you see anything that you or your wife, at the time, could have done to prevent this? Mr. L. DAHMER: Well, there was a lot going on. There was a lot of mental-- my former wife had a lot of mental and physical problems. And we were so occupied with those problems, it-- it was difficult to concentrate on anything else. WINFREY: Or to see that your child was becoming increasingly lost? Mr. L. DAHMER: Increasingly shy, that's all that we saw. Mr. L. DAHMER: I mean, there was--you know, I would--I would encourage any parent, though, who has problems, and there are millions of people who have it... WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. L. DAHMER: ...divorce, who have marital problems, elicit-- draw out information in all kinds of ways with your minister, with your rabbi, with--with teachers, whoever. WINFREY: Because now you can see where the trouble was-- was breeding itself. Mr. L. DAHMER: Yeah. The psychologist that I have seen to help me through this said he didn't even know if he could ever draw out anything to elicit anything, to show these bizarre thoughts that were developing Jeff's mind. But it's worth a try. It's worth a checkup for any parent. Take their kids--if they're extremely shy, it doesn't mean that they have to go to a psychologist. But go for a checkup. If they're not talking to anyone at all about their fears and anger and so forth... WINFREY: Something's going on is what you're saying. Mr. L. DAHMER: ...do something. Yeah.

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